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Update 01.146 - Meteor Improvements & Backup Saves

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Jul 28, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Bahroth Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    173
    Yeah I choked on my coffee when I saw that backup slider go to 1000, bout time meteors got some tweaking too. :D

    I'm almost wondering what an upside down (from planet core) crater would look like. :stare:
     
  2. RobberFly Trainee Engineer

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    16
    I like the scratched glass, because apparently I'm a tasteless barbarian. Ironically, the fact that modders can provide us with non-scratched glass is the only excuse Keen needs to not remove the scratches. The only thing that needs justification here is the unwillingness to modify your game to match your personal taste. I am aware that you find something fundamentally distasteful about mods, but at some point you have to admit that they provide us with options. I've seen you petitioning Keen for "options, options, options" recently, though I'm not going to dig up the quote. Mods are the mechanism by which your currently requested option is provided. Mods allow players to use either non-scratched or scratched glass. You choose not to play with non-scratched glass. That is not Keens fault, and they are absolutely under no obligation to work around your unjustified boycott of mods.

    It is not appropriate to slander the developer for not implementing your personal preference as a vanilla feature when they've already provided you with the means to play with non-scratched glass.

    Queue backfire effect, I am sorry internet.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    Well, i don't know about the "barbarian" part.

    No.
    Just because you can alter a vanilla block with outside help doesn't mean it's okay to let the vanilla block rot while it's being fixed (and as we're both well aware, it IS getting fixed, it just takes a while, which in itself isn't the problem here). I'll like to use the new block placing system as comparison: by default the CTRL-key is used for many an action, including changing the distance of the block ghost from the Engineer AND the actual placing of the block. This, rather expectedly, leads the default key mapping to automatically place the block while trying to adjust for the actual placing (and a hell of a lot of deleting of floating, unwanted blocks). Yes, this can be fixed by removing CTRL from the "Tool/Weapon"-function - but it's still a problem with the default key binds.
    The option to fix a problem is no justification not to fix it.

    Don't hurt your back there with the heavy lifting, buddy, i use it all the time, no need for quoting. I'm going to answer that in two parts.
    1.) Mods as options are a great thing. I don't agree with them being part of an Alpha but, in general, if you want your windows to be covered in squashed bugs, dead birds, Trump's toupet and whatever that grey thing in the upper left is - go for it. But:
    2.) I'm going to quote myself here:
    Bit of a different context here but the same general sentiment applied to fixes: you, Sir or Ma'am, are part of the problem by letting them get away with not doing their job on that one. It is not the modders' collective jobs to fix the Cat Glass, not unless Keen starts paying them to do so.

    On long-term projects I choose not to gamble around with mods that might not work next week, or might not get supported in the Branche i play next month, or that might produce bugs that wouldn't happen in the vanilla game.

    They're under no obligation to work around my perfectly reasonable partial boycott of mods.
    They ARE under obligation to keep their game playable and fix changes that are widely agreed upon to be complete and utter nonsense.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. RobberFly Trainee Engineer

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    16
    The ample usage of the word "fix" presupposes that something is broken. When discussing aesthetics, "broken" does not apply. The windows are not accidentally scratched, it is not a bug. Opinion is being sold as fact here. I'm also not sold on the few dozen to a hundred regular respondents in this forum representing an opinion as "widely agreed upon" when compared to the ~4,000 daily players. I imagine that unique regular players per month number far higher, but unfortunately I do not have access to that statistic. If you would like to offer a poll that represents a statistically relevant portion of the playerbase that backs up this claim, I'm open to discussing it.

    Otherwise, personal preference is personal preference and you are still just as capable of playing with non-scratched glass if you so desire-- without even risking comprising the integrity of any of your save games or blueprints.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  5. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    A window so dirty, tinted and/or scratched that the pilot can barely look outside is, by definition, broken, because (side-objectives like keeping air in aside) the first duty of a window is to be see-through - otherwise you might as well plug the hull in that place and install one of the ( due to the overlay even more useless) cameras.

    Buy it or leave it, I'm hardly the only one selling it. Surely someone will offer you an oppinion more to your taste for a lower price.

    Ah. Finally a good point.
    Yes, the sample size here is rather small compared to the overall playerbase. Like every game SE has people who care about it's further development, who go and read (or don't go and don't read) developer posts and patchnotes; typically, the people not posting here only come to these halls when something terrible went wrong, like your game no longer updating weekly or not working anymore after a patch. These people, the ones who generally don't post, post either somewhere else, like Reddit, or simply don't care enough. Now, you'll be pleased to hear that i value your oppinion a bit more than those even if i disagree, simply because you chose to take the time to write it down. I'm not saying the silent majority's oppinion doesn't matter; it totally does. But if it can't be arsed to go ahead and voice it Keen can't can't know it, and therefore can't excactly act on it. What're they supposed to do, roll dice? (Well, some of the latest changes...)
    So what you're left with is the amount of people who DO give enough of a shit to inform themselfs and, maybe, try to influence the devs enough to change things. It's an Early Access title, after all; our feedback is the entire point. And if a sample size is all you got, you gotta use it.

    Go ahead and open a suggestion for an automated ingame list of feedback questions; you certainly got my vote. But until the silent majority gets it's butt to such a poll in this or an other, conventional way you're going to have to make due with the sample size of those who voice (or sell) their oppinion.

    Right now i execute my personal preference of not playing at all for a small variety of reasons until the game returns to a state that agrees more with... well, me, Space Engineers gameplay, Creative Gameplay, take your pick. It's free, you don't even have to buy it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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  6. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    1,012
    @Commander Rotal Not that I don't agree completely with you but shut up and go get a glass mod already. :p
    Just to save what little is left of your own sanity.
    It won't hurt your game any if you need to remove it at any time (well other than you'll have to look at the fugly vanilla glass again). I promise.
    It has left me with more free time to bitch about more important things like pistons and rotors and oxygen.
    I wouldn't even remember how horrid the vanilla glass is if you didn't bring it up every week ;)
     
  7. RobberFly Trainee Engineer

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    16
    Hyperbole meant to justify a preference in aesthetics due to an impedement to gameplay when in-fact it is not truly an impediment to gameplay. If it were as bad as you say, I would agree because that would indeed impede my gameplay. However, the argument is invalid since the reality is not as the exaggeration would make it seem. Somehow, many thousands of players are able to navigate their ships. Is every single one of them using autopilot or a mod?

    I wouldn't care if the glass were made to be more clear than it is currently. That does not negate the fact that we could all play with clear glass today if we so chose. Keen can take their sweet time meticulously crafting a better texture without justifying the hate presented here.

    Edit: I would care if glass were made to be completely clear. I would be disappointed that Keen made such a change, but then I would promptly install a mod to resolve it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  8. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    Glass didn't make me stop, it's just on the list of "Really Not Helping". If you find a mod that restores the option to turn off Station Voxel Support... i'd probably use it.
     
  9. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    1,012
    Here! Here! For how little I thought I really cared about that feature, I've been feeling the pain since I've been working on larger (still tiny to you :p) builds.
    Yeah, building for you must be a living hell.
     
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  10. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    Somehow, many thousands of players are also playing with current multiplayer, current Rotors, current Pistons, current autopilot (has that one even been fixed yet?), current wheels and current X where X is any feature of the game that doesn't work properly. Are thousands of players not complaining about a broken multiplayer code a reason to tell Keen not to work on it?

    Nobody has a problem with Keen taking their time producing a new, better texture (well, at least i don't.). The main gripe here is that it'd be a trivial change to return to the old windows for the base version of the game (the one sold, the one we're supposed to test) until that mythical new, better texture is available, and that this has not happened in months despite heavy request.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. Carlosmaid Apprentice Engineer

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    177
    Beautiful Meteor Storm!

    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. Gwindalmir Senior Engineer

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    1,004
    One important thing for modders and players in this update that wasn't mentioned in the changelog:
    Ingame scripts and scripting mods now have conditional compilation symbols indicating which branch the script is running on.

    This means modders and scripters can support mods on both branches at the same time with the same workshop item.

    See this post for details on how to use it:
    http://forums.keenswh.com/threads/conditional-compilation-symbols-now-in-development-01-146.7386102/

    I personally have already updated my Beam Drill and FTL mods to utilize this, if anyone wants a real-world example.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. JuStX2 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    312
    Wanna explain what makes "Sol" So exceptionally Stable? Way I see it this is all conjecture to begin with; both yours...and mine. I somehow doubt either of us has a degree in astrophysics, much less has actually seen other star systems in action.

    Also before you go quoting Hawking - know that he is not a specialist in the field of astrophysics - in reality he is a writer who dabbles in the mindset of imagination. His "true" field is biology if memory serves; which has next to nothing to do with the thesis he spouts as theories.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  14. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    382
    The world is filled to the brim with people that will ignore what you want, even if it is there job to listen t what you want. You can either wait for them to do what they are supposed to do. Or you can just do it yourself. Most of the time, doing it yourself costs less resources, takes less energy, and consumes less time then convincing them to do it. Do us all a favor and delete the dirt texture on windows, the blue tint and borders will still be there.
     
  15. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    I'm curious: in what significant ways are all of our collective lifes improving if i do that?
    The borders i don't have a problem with, their surrounding the field of what should be unobstructed. Would like a borderless version better thigh.
    The blue tint... on the see-through side it's annoying. I don't know if you mean te old blueish tint or the current, grey fog effect that for non colorblind eyes might look blue, i wouldn't know. I assume you mean the one that makes windows look like they're crazily dusty, and yes, ideally that one should go too. But imo it's not as bad as the scratches; the foggy effect i xan at least see through even it looks bad. (well,from many an angle, at least)
    The opaqueside, though, the one that got introduced long after DX11 first brought us perfect wondows (much to my hapiness at the time) that's literallu impossible to see through, at least with my eyes? Yeah that one should ideally become a seperate block at some point too, butas long as ONE side of a window is useable i can work around it.
     
  16. JuStX2 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    312
    Ya'll know ya'll disabled the ability to disable/enable spiders on the advanced menu options? I figure I'd ask here in case like many other "bugs" Keen was doing this intentionally.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. CillianRaynor Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    9

    yea and the ambient lighting



    oh wait..... it's still not fixed like 3 months in.
     
  18. JuStX2 Apprentice Engineer

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    312
    If I am not mistaken the following is a full (or mostly full) list of what Keen has largely or entirely ignored:

    Pistons/Rotors causing massive explosions
    Ambient/Primary Lighting Options
    Block Placing Limitations
    The Correct Grammar of "Not Airtight"
    The Correct attitude for fixing bugs and enabling features
    The incorrect attitude of disabling and/or removing options.
    Community Opinion as voiced on the forums.
    Sales Charts
    Depreciation
    Branch Limitations at too late in the system
    Windows being unduly scratched/tinted/mal-aligned
    (traditional) Radio Ranges being held above the (laser) antenna.
    Mods doing (most) of keen's work for them without pay
    Careless Camera Tricks
    Root Cause Analysis
    Data Corruption
    BootFail Zero Day Virus
    And most recently - The Spiders are now no longer toggle-able.

    Although Despite all these failings - I still have their primary title listed at slot 7 of my favorite games list.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  19. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    Godddamnit. And of course, like the removal to nope out of Station Voxel Support, this wasn't mentioned in the patch notes either, right? Lemme recheck... nope, can't find it. What the shit is going on over there?

    Edit: This is this week's World Edit screen:

    [​IMG]

    And this is from last week, i think:

    [​IMG]
    Disable Respawn Ships has been removed as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  20. Thalyn Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    19
    Looks like a hard-coded scroll limit on the options - adding the save backup slider has simply pushed the two off the bottom of what you can scroll to. Chances are the settings are still exactly where they should be and could be altered by manually editing the save.

    Not to say that it should be an acceptable practice (dialogues with any potential for change should be dynamic in size, including scroll capabilities), but it's hardly game-breaking.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  21. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    382
    You can delete the blue tint also, currently the windows I'm playing with just have the border. Everything else is entirely see through. "I'm curious: in what significant ways are all of our collective lifes improving if i do that?" Despite popular belief, most humans don't like seeing other humans suffer. Except Marek, but he might be a sadist.
     
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  22. Clanner Jake Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    197
    i made a suggestion thread about adding CH4 engines and Nerva style engines, the current thrusters are magic carpet stopgaps. keen also needs to fix the way ice is cracked... all of my points were meet with "install a mod" or "make a mod", which was absolutely infuriating to hear. SE should be a little more real - tons of us would enjoy having a planet system that rotated on its axis up to a certain % into space (so we could have geosynchronous stations... ect.) or thrusters that actually cost is real planning... just think if keen added a block that routed gas's and electrical and control... but no. people think this is stricktly to be an arcade game. you should see my suggestion on better grinders too. surprised i didn't get a "make a mod..." poster trolling me there as well...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  23. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    Well, to be fair that one point is a technical limitation - they totally would make planets rotating if they could but the calculations required would be off the charts; the only reason planets can be as big as they are is that they don't need further processing until altered (which is why mining voxels eats up Ram so much).
     
  24. Clanner Jake Apprentice Engineer

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    197
    well, currently i'm sure it is. you'd not need to do any real calculations if they did some work on how the game views the position of things - which is something they really need to work on as i die getting out of a moving seat most days, or standing on a moving slope or... i digress, if everything in the rotation sphere had a single modifier they'd all be calculated at once under as a global setting updated - if keen used two frames of reference like this we could have a better day and night, and maybe a new tidally locked world closer to a stationary sun(then keen would need to work on its sun effects...). people with complaints about the night time would have a place to start and do only solar.. i'm sure the machinama people would complain though, they love that day/night slider as bugged as it is - keen should have an arcade world and a realistic world and move all the creative stuff to the arcade as in game options instead of load setting tweaks.

    but this is just my thoughts about it all..
     
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  25. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    @Clanner Jake the idea of having some world options be Creative-only (like Copypasting) has crossed my mind too. Me personally i could live with that but i'm not convinced this would fly with the Survival players.
     
  26. Sumyunguy Trainee Engineer

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    86
    The current dev process for keen, at the moment, seems to be outsourcing bug fixes/mistakes to mods/external editing and playing a mix-and-match game with gameplay options (And possibly goofing GUI of options). Once again, kinda disappointing. I had hoped the game would age like fine wine and things would sort themselves out but this proverbial wine has become vinegar, to an extent.
     
  27. Clanner Jake Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    197
    copy-paste should be the only survival option you can enable, for various reasons with the alpha state this game is in... thrusters fail, for one solid reason(i copy my ships before i move them sometimes).
     
  28. Bleh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    51
    @Drui @Xocliw

    When did the building GUI change so drastically in DEV?

    well whatever the answer i super hate the new build interface with the scrolling to change block shapes and pressing r to switch from large to small blocks or whatever it was.
    if you're going to make this the new default please make the old interface available.

    so to summarize
    new building interface: super hate it
    old (still in stable) build interface: like it.
     
  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    I retired from my job after 20 years last June. I haven't been here pretty much since then. Work was the only time I had to be by a computer with not much else to do (last couple years or so) but couldn't play Space Engineers. Now, choosing between forums or SE, SE wins. It seems, though, that glass is still... controversial.

    As the builder of a ship with more glass blocks than total blocks of most other ships (and for that matter more modded blocks in one ship than total blocks of most ships), let me say this about the glass: it's not broken and doesn't need to be fixed. You can see through it just fine under most conditions, therefore the texture itself can be ignored when playing the game. It's not pretty. It's not what I would have picked, even though those that know me know I prefer scratched and dented textures. If the current glass was an option I would use it for some of my ships, but not all.

    We all know what the story is. Marek wanted it changed. No one wanted to fuck with the window textures one way or the other, but the boss said change it, so they did. Well guess what? They still don't want to fuck with the window textures. Fucking with the window textures fucks with other things. I think Marek understands that now and that's why he hasn't ordered anyone to restore (as in change) the window texture. There will be a point down the road where changing that texture can be part of a larger change or a point where new code will make the current texture moot. I don't know, but it's pretty clear to me that unless Marek explicitly says so, the current window texture stays until the staff changes it. The current texture does not appear to have had any significant effect on SE's sales or popularity, which removes any urgency. There are... more pressing... issues.

    I both understand and appreciate Rotal's stance on mods. I don't agree with it, but I don't have to. She's not wrong. At least, I can't say the staff at Keen isn't dragging their feet because Modders have produced some excellent reasons to just leave it to them. I just don't believe that. They don't personally email me their priorities for my approval so I just don't know:(.

    I do, however, use TVSI Tech interior glass;)
     
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  30. JuStX2 Apprentice Engineer

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    312
    @Stardriver907 - Although I don't agree with your language...your point is well taken; changing things just upsets people; but the thing is people bought in to this game KNOWING there would be change in the immediate future and further down the line. To suddenly say "Nope, We're not risking another change" is ludicrous. The true problem isn't the change, it's the way they're changing it. Disable Respawn Ships and Spiders are locked off the bottom of the GUI, Voxel Support was completely disabled, the options are being removed in a sense whether it's intentional or not. There is no excuse - what-so-ever - for Keen's lack of competency. I hate to harken back to this but if this is the kind of design we can expect from SE, what does that say about GoodAI or other KSH projects? No. Keen Is repeating a tragic pattern of building up a game, then slowly eating away at it's usability and creativity. Space Engineer's lived this long because of the support of the community - make no mistake; but even the community has it's limits to it's patience and personally I am at the end of mine. What is Keen doing anyway instead of responding themselves to this problem, even giving us a "headsup" - 'we know it's broken hang tight'? No They're just jovial to look at their sales numbers and little effort they put in to the project. Keen has stabbed the community in the back 3 times now - with 3 different games, only 2 of which I was personally part of.
     
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