Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Update 01.148 DEV - Bug Fixes and Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Aug 11, 2016.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Zinlu Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    10
    Finally registered an account here for this ridiculous glass debate. Scratches on armor? I couldn't care less. Scratches and dust or pockmarks or whatever that texture is supposed to be that turns opaque when light shines on it, for a part that is supposed to be able to be seen through to actually drive your ship? No, no, a thousand times no.
    All these arguments of 'pristine' are incorrect as well. I can't speak for anyone else, but my personal preference is the glass model previous to our current. The old glass wasn't pristine, it had a few blemishes, and a fogging of dust or dirt or something around the edges, but by Clang, you could SEE THROUGH the larger part of the glass, no matter how the light hit it. Amazing concept for something you sacrifice structural integrity for, to be able to view the outside.

    The crux of the matter though, my personal biggest beef with the whole thing, is how LONG IT HAS BEEN LEFT IN. Almost every week multiple posts about it, yet nothing is done. Unless you count the almost every week replies of there being mods for cleaning it up, which btw were there days, if not hours after the glass patch was thrust upon us. I also don't remember there being anywhere near the clamor for dirty glass before it was changed, as there has been for it to be cleaned up.

    I prefer not using mods for the simple fact of the chance of them breaking each patch. Especially for workshop submissions. Mods are for finished, released games in my opinion.

    I haven't played since the glass was carbide wheeled, so I have to ask: Was the glass in self-contained cockpits given a similar treatment?

    tl:Dr Terrible glass has been in for far too long. The glass itself isn't the problem. It's the length of time it has been, that's the problem.
    Thanks for the reassurances it is being worked on.

    Ps. The Witch has dirty/tinted glass mods in the workshop. They've been there for a while too.

    Pps. If we weren't passionate about the game, we wouldn't be so upset about it. SE is still one of my faves.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  2. Renfield37 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    97
    Defonten, I really admire your work. As a prior military aviation structural mechnanic with the paint qual, your style is really fitting to me. The armor panels and gravity generator reminds me my past daily chores and toils in quite the profound way. Keep up the good work.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,110
    I have to say that, while I consider the scratches and staining of the blocks a matter of personal preference (an opinion, and therefore, a subject where no one can hold a position of absolute truth), because it's an aesthetic theme, I do agree with those criticising the scratches on glass.
    Something as valuable as a proper visual capacity for what happens outside a ship would be of paramount importance on any vessel (thus, subject to intense maintenance), being how it is the primary sensor, the check for stuff being there or not, specially if you don't have radars and stuff like that. And not only that, it impacts proper gameplay as well, forcing a 3rd person switch to get a clear sight, because the scratches do stand out, a lot, which can be ranging from just annoying to physically inconvenient for one's eyes.

    Given how simple it is to make a piece of glass be just transparent (texturing wise), it amazes me that the issue hasn't been fixed yet, considering its many detractors.
    Yes, there are mods for that, but something so primordial as that should be in vanilla from the start. It'd be like saying that thrusters don't work, and thus, we should get a mod that fixes them.
     
  4. g4borg Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    271
    I like the scratches in the art style, but not so much on glass.
    Generally, I ask myself, why having multiple different texture sets for the base blocks on grids isn't a thing. It would use a loophole in the whole technology, and allow people to be happy, or even modders to do textures parallel. I mean, it would be easy to swap textures overall, right. As said, it could be per grid, instead of per block. Make a feature out of a problem. Then one ship could use a scratchy tex, and the other a clean tex. Mods could add more available textures, and would not have to introduce whole new blocks, just to get ships a different look.

    To realism in scratches, I also say, the facts speak against it. "Dust" in space probably has less particles than manmade "Vacuum" on earth. And even impacts are different, since there is simply no atmosphere. So the scratches on ships would always come from operating close to larger stuff. If people want to debate about this, I can only conclude they didn't do their proper research. Space ships dont scratch and collide with stuff, just by flying through space, there is simply too much space between stuff (pun intended)
    But anyway, realism is a bad decision maker to talk about when talking about games.
     
  5. Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,110
    While it's a nice idea, I don't think it'd be easy to make, requiring changes to how textures are loaded, how the game stores which object has which texture variant, and how mods are permitted to extend the default texture variants.
     
  6. g4borg Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    271
    sorry, but i dont see so hard problems here. first off, it is an addition, which means any datastructure can fall back, second, swapping textures or materials is very very easy to do if the engine is well structured. now i dont do much these days in SE engine and havent touched their rendering, but I cant agree in general, as from a developer perspective, nope, not hard; not in the slightest.

    I would only offer it with limitation, if it were my implementation: first off only detail lods are changeable (to keep it simple), and if the texture is not found or not defined, it falls back on default. from that on, you can load the texture at any time, and only support a few shaders to be safe. but hey, it was just an idea. It is clear, there would be some work probably, especially since you mention the api, true.

    edit: with pbr technique it becomes even easier, as scratches probably are a separate texture from the base material, to switch them. it might also be harder to do proper textures, which is why i would do this as a separate featureset in the modapi, as it only affects the dynamic blocks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  7. Ambient Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    84
    Looks fan*******tastic. Cant wait to see all the basic gray blocks retextured
     
  8. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    The handiwork is not yours. It's you characters. The whole argument here is that you can't control the look of the end product.

    True. There is no technical reason. It was an artistic choice. Still is, and it's their choice, not ours.

    Well, if my pattern or drawing already had the chocolate hand stamps on it with no way to remove it... Plus, they're not adding a new style. They're enhancing the original style.

    The problem is that the boss made them change the texture before they were ready just because he was the boss. Now even the boss understands that just changing the texture is complicated. That's why it hasn't changed back. They change it back, then they have to change it again when the real texture is ready. You want clear glass or working multiplayer? Boss agrees working multiplayer is more important.

    I keep reading stuff like this and I always called bullshit. If you can't see to navigate with the current glass something is wrong with your monitor or your eyes. I usually fly my ships in first person and the glass has never been an issue. Ever. Seriously, the scratches are right there in front of you. You're telling me you can't distinguish the static scratches from a moving background? Really? Let someone else pilot.

    It's amazing to me that people always think the thing they want is simple.

    No. I'm with you, man.

    Frank Miller ended those days for good. These days even Robin doesn't kid around. If Batman all of a sudden started dealing with villains by reasoning with them the franchise would end. Keen is trying to make a distinctive game, not a run-of-the-mill game. A big part of the distinction is the art. That's true for any game. If your game even remotely looks like someone else's people will notice and cry "RIPOFF" (**cough**Empyrion**cough**). "Worn" has always been the Space Engineers "look". It's a little late now to decide you don't like it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  9. Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,110
    Have you ever tried driving a car with a windshield and all windows full of crap? You do see, but you force your sight so much that it ends up being annoying and exhausting, not to mention you lose lots of details from the outside, sunlight reflects it blinding you, and it can be very distracting. And it can be hard to distinguish what's outside depending on certain circumstances. For example, very far objects, even if they move, can be hard to see if they're being blocked by a scratched part unless you put your nose into the screen. Don't think that qualifies as "let someone else pilot", and it's definitely not a good solution.

    Also, I can't speak for people with real sight problems, so maybe @Commander Rotal can enlighten us in that regard. I know she hates the scratched glass, but can't say if it's because of aesthetics/practical issues, or because she really can't see shit with that glass there.

    Unless other people that think everything is simple, being a developer grants me the experience to know what is and what isn't simple. Having worked around designers and artists for a few years also gave me a grasp of how things work in that department.

    So, fixing netcode? Not simple.
    Fixing DS? Not simple.
    Doing rotating celestial bodies? Not simple.
    Making the new PBR models? Not simple.
    Swapping a single texture for a planar two-sided object that's intended to be crystal clear (pun intended)? Definitely simple.

    I want a great many things, but I do happen to have some idea of what is hard and what isn't, so, unless a Dev comes by and stomps my argument with a proper explanation, I don't think there's that much room for doubt in this, it's arguing for the sake of arguing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    Yes. The current glass is not as bad as that, plain and simple. I say again, if you can't navigate a ship with the current glass, someone else should drive. That, and the current glass will be replaced when the time is right, which is their determination, not ours.

    You have zero experience working with this particular game and have no idea whatsoever what is hard and what isn't. Your argument has already been stomped, pummeled, ground into dust. They're changing the glass. When they're ready. In the meantime you have two obvious simple solutions to the glass "problem": use a mod or wait until the glass changes. Did it ever occur to you that changing the glass back is not a coding issue at all? They know what to do. They did it once already because they where forced to do so when the boss walked into the original glass because it was so clear and he wanted it not so clear. Did it occur to you that the entire staff wondered why the hell did they have to stop what they were doing to accommodate a new glass texture when there was nothing wrong with the old one? Did it occur to you that there was always a plan to change the glass and perhaps it was supposed to happen when all the textures got a facelift? It's not about who hates the glass. Everyone hates the glass. If you want to be upset with someone, contact Marek Rosa. He's the only one that wanted to change the glass. Not the fans. Not the staff. Marek. The fact that the glass has not changed suggests that there is a more permanent solution that involves more than just the glass. There's no reason to believe the staff is lazy or stupid because the glass didn't get changed back as quickly as it was changed.

    Being a developer should grant you the experience to know better.
     
  11. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,977
    Well, for the colors... it used to be much, much worse on the light side. Remember when the tint was that horrible dusty grey? I could legitimetely not see through that, especially because of the way the glass likes to reflect the final frontier into my face.
    It's still bad; imma gonna post a screenshot that will show you why i ask for perfectly clear glass all the time; it's because the tint mutes the colors so much they start running into each other.

    [​IMG]

    It's not UNUSEABLE on the light side right now, but it's most definitely user unfriendly.

    Of course, i can't see shit through the dark side of the glass:

    [​IMG]

    (And that's one a planet, where the dark side is significantly more see-through. Me personally i don't see shit behind that glass wall. I mean, i see shapes and the sky but buck me with a bag of hammers if i could navigate that through this.)
    I was beyond dismayed when they "fixed" that; clear, fucking perfect windows was just about the one thing i enjoyed about early DX11. But nope, can't have functioning windows, i guess. Black (or blueish) tint in front of black space? Yeah no.

    And of course then there are the scratches. I mean, they're ugly, clumped together, look more like squashed bugs than scratches, tbh. I will freely admit that my biggest beef with the Cat Glass is that it looks ugly and just plain wrong (especially after enjoying clean and intact glass for so long) but if this:

    [​IMG]

    isn't distracting to anyone i want their eyestalks cause i'm jelly. Imagine piloting a ship through that; it'd be like someone evenly distributed a liquified bug on your glasses. (I think that's still the grey tint, btw.) It's undoubtedly not as bad if you stand back and look at a huge wall of windows, but we're not supposed to build huge so i'm calling that a no-no in terms of counterpoints.
    (On a side note: if i was Treebeard i'd be a bit terrified of the kind of space dust that does THIS to windows. Isn't that glass supposed to be safe?)

    (looping in @Xocliw) There's also a third option that could be implemented tomorrow if they cared enough: in the 1.46 Update Thread, @Robotnik V told me the following:

    You see the (ignoring the tint) beautiful, unharmed windows above? That is not modded. I tried Robotnik's triage and it worked, took me about a minute including finding their post. This is the kind of reason why people are fed up with the scratches. They are not hard to fix. I can do it if told how. There is no excuse for Keen (whether on Marek's authority or otherwise, last i checked he IS a rather important part of Keen) not to do this themselfs within a month of realising the new glass would take this long.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. EmperorDragon Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    113
    Thank you for posting that tip from Robotnik V again, I missed it the first time around.

    By the way, I got pulled over yesterday afternoon and fined the rough equivalent of US$60 for a minor crack in my car's windshield that I picked up less than a week ago. I wonder what the traffic cop would have done if the windshield looked like glass in SE? I wonder what would the aviation authority do if you fly a plane with a windshield like that, let alone a spacecraft.

    It is true that if your vision is impaired by dirty/damaged glass that you should not drive but, it's not that someone else should drive either, with glass in such a condition, no one at all should drive. Fortunately there are no traffic cops in space...
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,110
    It's not as bad, but it's not as good either. Can I navigate ships? Yes. Is it any good? No. Not that I care much about it these days, since I'm playing Overwatch non-stop, but I still think it's something that should get done. However, given the issues behind this matter, and the impact it'd have with the players (seeing the mostly negative feedback against the scratches), I can't see why there haven't been any "right times" yet.

    Oh? Is that a fact?
    It'd seem you have zero knowledge of what I've done or not with this game. While I haven't pushed any requests to GitHub, I've been knee-deep in the source ever since it came out, most notably digging stuff regarding planets (back when they weren't released) and skybox rotation until I moved on to other stuff. I was more like experimenting and messing around than contributing any real fixes, like more useful people than me have done.

    You are not a Keen Dev (not that I know), so you can't really stomp my arguments because of your negative bias against them, just like I can't claim absolute truth to all of it because of my positive bias.

    Ok, first of all, I never said it was a coding issue. In fact, I did say it was more like an art department issue, or at least, I hinted at it (at least I think I did). I used coding issues as examples, but it was never a direct connection. I'm a programmer, so I know texturing has nothing to do with C# (unless you're fiddling with the engine core and the shaders).
    Second, I was around when the glass changed but I don't remember the situation, so thanks for the reminder that it was Marek's thing. I'll try to remember that.
    Third, I'm not really upset or anything, it was just a regular debate in which I saw fit to leave my piece. If I was upset, blaming Marek would really be useful I guess.
    Fourth, I never stated the staff is lazy, stupid, or anything negative, it just seems strange to me that the change for good is not executed sooner, I didn't see any logic to it, but now I do, sort of. At least I know it's Marek's doing.

    But, like I said, I'm into other games lately, so this was just an opportunity for debate (I didn't even quote anyone in my initial post), there's no anger or disgust in it, because it doesn't currently affect me, I can afford to have all the patience in the world, I don't intend to make this be the center of all my problems. If glass has to be scratched for another year, so be it, I've said what I had to say.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    I believe this is all that's happening in the clear glass mod? I wonder if just removing the texture altogether isn't a bad idea until they're ready with the new textures? Most of the glass mods either remove tint or scratches or both. Removing the texture entirely shouldn't hurt anything, should it?

    Then I could just download a mod for scratches.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  15. Stoner Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    300
    Very nice modeling and texturing. Love it. As a 3D modeler myself (for another game), I can really appreciate the artistry and intensive manhours that went into something that looks "so simple" as heavy armour.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.