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Update 01.180.1 Minor - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Apr 20, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    230
    Actually what I'm doing is explaining why I don't see a need to add certain features and why I believe they wouldn't add much value to the game. Take that for whatever way you will.

    Reputation system: I've seen these in several other games that I've played and more often than not they start out as being a cool thing. However after a little bit of time they typically turn into nothing but a vendor with a very select few items or abilities that have remained relevant, with everything else being something you've long since out-leveled and making them trivial. There would need to be enough of an incentive to interact with these reputation based AI in either the positive or the negative. For a basic hypothetical, if I make an alliance with Group A, they will send a basic drone to help repel attacks by Group B, or perhaps to assist with repairs to any of my structures after the attack is repelled. If I attack Group B enough, they're going to send dreadnoughts after me the size of the Death Star until everything I own is smoking rubble. Those are just a few hypotheticals but hopefully you get the idea.

    Procedure generated NPC structures: I've been asking for this for awhile now. I would love to see the possibility of flying along in my fighter scouting for resources, then after I fly over a hill I'm face to face with 20 pirate drones in the middle of a massive pirate city and have to start fighting for my life. I absolutely agree it gets too quiet once we nuke the pre-placed structures. I would love to see the ability to turn this feature up so that you've got a pirate structure every other small block worth of space on the planet, to only seeing 1 every 50 km or something along those lines. If I hit mining structure X I know I can hijack more uranium than normal. If I hit structure Y then I might be able to pick up additional components. I've always agreed that the worlds can feel very barren.

    As far as an economic system goes, for me it would be getting too far into the strategy game department and at that point I would just go play one of my strategy games. More often than not I've seen these economic system ideas in other games be something that turns into little more than a gimmick, or it becomes the chief focus of the game and the game becomes something else entirely. Can those types of systems be implemented, sure they can. However I always remain skeptical of them in games like SE. Far as the creatures go on planet, they would also need some type of incentive other than to simply be annoying. Such as if I kill 20 of X creature I'll have enough of material Z to make something.

    Aerodynamics: these can work if done correctly though I've yet to see a system that would do little more than be a drag on atmospheric combat, no pun intended. You would have to keep in mind that we're not just talking about pure space ships here as alot of ships out there can fly in atmosphere or space, especially hydrogen based ones. Assuming a hydrogen based fighter as our hypothetical example, you would want it to experience atmospheric effects sure, but you wouldn't want to make it impossible to create ships that excel in both atmosphere and space.

    Ores: I've actually suggested in the past adding some of the more rare ores to meteors as then it would give meteors more purpose. I know I'm not the first one to suggest that by any means, but I am a proponent of it. As our hypothetical, a meteor shower comes in and once the meteor crashes down, it stays in the ground until something moves it or it gets mined. Using uranium as a primary example, the meteor could carry mostly bits of rock and ice, similar to real meteors, but with bits of uranium mixed in with them as well. This would give folks some motivation to actually go out and explore a bit more to find these meteors, and give some motivation to let a few of them hit the ground instead of just vaporizing them on entry.

    For in game structures I do believe that would be one of the fairest ways to do it is to do a submission contest type deal. Perhaps give players the option of allowing it to utilize some of the smaller blueprints in your collection under a certain file size.

    There's stuff still I would love to see sure, but even the best of features can be tarnished if the implementation isn't meaningful or is done incorrectly. Heck at this point I just wish we could jack up the range on the sensors without needing mods so that it would make the ship more fun and I could at least say I have sensor pallets on the ship to help navigate, similar to the Enterprise in Star Trek. Heck if we had the ability to turn the sensor ranges up to several kilometers at least, or scan for things around the ship, I would turn off my hud and fly by sensors alone. I wouldn't complain if they added energy shields either, though I know they don't want to do that.

    Far as heat goes at the very least I think it would be cool to have a visual effect around your ship to indicate you've entered an atmosphere. Let's assume heat was added so that it can effect the ship. There would need to be simple ways to deal with the heat, such as cooling blocks you can connect to your conveyor system to carry coolant all through your ship to keep it from overheating. In severe cases if heat built up enough, generators in operation could overheat and require time to cool or vent the heat. This could also of course be turned into a weapon. Hydrogen tanks and generators not in active operation wouldn't heat up as much. In severe cases you could have generators that overheat too much to meltdown and go boom. Point being, if heat was ever added, give us a way to combat said heat without it be too cumbersome. All of the heat systems I've ever seen folks talking about involves adding massive cooling blocks that are around the size of a large cargo bay at the minimum making cooling systems wayyy too bulky and unwieldy. I wouldn't find it fun having to slap a massive cooling unit on my ship that takes up half my engineering room in space. I would say no bigger than 2x2x1 at the absolute most for large units with smaller ones being only 1 large block. Similar dimensions could be added for small grids. However most folks I've seen have complained about that being too small and saying it should take up more space.

    Like I said, I'm not opposed to refitting existing ships and such provided there is a meaningful reason to do it. Right now from what I'm hearing I don't see enough reason for me to throw my support behind some of the suggested features. Show me some more expounded upon iterations of aerodynamics, heat mechanics, and such and we can debate from there.
     
  2. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    You're essentially sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nah nah nah, I don't want"...
     
  3. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
    I play with Deadly Reentry, which is aerodynamics and heat, balanced for SE's quirks. It's fun to be able to make an actual plane, and to have bricks handle like crap in atmosphere. The whole "just drop from orbit at 104m/s, you'll just lose your landing gear on impact" issue isn't an issue when you turn into fire and die in an uncontrolled decent. Plus you can actually glide like the space shuttles did.

    If nothing else, it makes the game feel more intuitive, and it adds more engineering to do. SE's physics are way too simplified for it to turn into a Kerbal level of potential aggravation for new players, your basic flying brick still works, and you can still make orbit in a vehicle that has no business doing so.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. oleando Apprentice Engineer

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    143
    104 is rather slow for reentry, the max speed limit should be brought to 300 to make this viable
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. ILL-UMINATI Trainee Engineer

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    17
    When is the issue with explosions taking up to 5 seconds to calculate and then apply deformation and damage to blocks going to be fixed? It's been like 3 months since this bug was introduced and every time I come back to check on it it's still there, along with about a dozen new issues that my mod causes that weren't there before.

    Also to the guys arguing about gameplay, use mods that add gameplay. There are a ton of mods that add more enemies and such. Mods that make survival mode more difficult and expand the construction process. Hell I was working on one that would've made survival an actual game in its own right but forget working on anything while the devs are pushing out untested weekly bug additions.
     
  6. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    It was done on purpose. There is something in the code (I don't fully understand yet) about a delayed block destruction queue. I speculate it was done to improve performance somehow. Clearly it still needs more work.
     
  7. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    230
    Actually I elaborated on what I would like to see and provided you with an iteration for those features as a possibility. I then asked you to provide me with your iteration of what you would like to see so we could discuss from there. I have also stated that when done correctly I am not opposed to adding said features. However I had not seen an iteration of said features I could throw my support behind. That's why I asked you to give a full elaboration on what your version of said features would, more so than what you had there. Call it whatever you will but if I don't think it's going to add value then I'm not going to be a proponent of it.
     
  8. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    834
    Implementing what @Harrekin said is pretty easy if you´ve got a clear idea.

    -Make the world much more random between sectors; Asteroid size, Number of asteroids, Pirate ships, Meteors and Ore deposit size: this means each sector has a unique play to it

    -Make a world map similar to ME, with each sector having some data to it regarding resources, sectors can be owned by random factions; the more rich and the less hazards a place has, the more
    probable it´s inhabited and potentially well defended: This grounds us with our world and lets us have an accurate image of our playing field

    -Extend combat ranges and make missiles track targets, potentially add a new hefty long range weapon, maybe include "realistic terminal block damage": Mixes things up along trying to avoid a combat of "who gets melted first"

    -Make factions matter by automatically expanding the faction´s territory through an algorithm which lets it conquer the bordering unnocupied sectors, if you have a sector that is "average" in rare resources and is bordering his´s you get declared war: This way you´ll have something to look out for; you´ve got a faction several sectors away? You better arm yourself.

    -Have certain extremely rare/difficult to get materials; Titanium, Carbon, Uranium, Gold, Silver; those would be your bottleneck for large scale production and high-end stuff, planets would have a lot ofCarbon with some Titanium and Uranium, the last two would be common in certain sectors.

    -And my dream-thing would be NPCs you can hire as crew, give orders if they´re in a cockpit, and control directly, they need food, oxygen and pay... I put them last because they need a couple of changes to be feasible, but the level of depth they would give to the game; unreal.

    Anyways, all of those can have extremely simplified implementations, but they have far-reaching results
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
    The lovely thing about Deadly Reentry is that it checks what the speed cap is and scales itself accordingly. The higher your max speed, the more realistic values it uses.
     
  10. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    1,018
    Actually, it's their version of timer and programmable blocks. An activated lever (stick attached to a rock) performs the same function as a redstone block/torch, so redstone isn't power generation.
     
  11. Xanthyn Trainee Engineer

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    62
    I haven't read through this whole thread yet but my experience with this is that things are still only drawing power from solar panels if no other power sources are available, and batteries on semi-auto (edit: make that batteries on any setting) are discharging power even when there are enough solar panels for the job.
     
  12. ILL-UMINATI Trainee Engineer

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    17
    I knew they had made some changes to the damage calculation for performance but I assumed the 5+ second delay on even medium sized chunks of calculation was a bug. Not a feature. If it is intentional and just going to sit on the backburner for a year I'm just done. I spent months making an intricate combat mod and I can't even work on it because I can't do ANY combat testing while even a few weapons fire exchanged between two small ships takes nearly a minute to resolve the actual damage.

    I don't even understand why the performance was touched in that area, as someone who's spent hundreds of hours extensively testing combat scenarios I can say without a doubt the only thing that actually causes lag is particle effects and TURRET AI. Turrets sorting through targets for priority takes up 80% of the massive jump in processing in combat. Thousands of projectiles in flight are negligible, those projectiles hitting a target don't cause any major processing increase, but 150 turrets that don't even fire can slow my sim speed to .4 while they track a target, even if it's not moving.
     
  13. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    651
    I stopped doing any work on this game after something like a week. Working on a constantly changing project is an exercise in frustration and you should have stopped ages ago.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    I like the way your preach.
    --- Automerge ---
    Most of that has already been done by a mod or script.
     
  15. Master Obelawe Trainee Engineer

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    9
    what is going on i am building at night then all the lights go out if in base if i fly hitting x then hit ground the all lights back on for short time any one having same problem
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  16. Tau Trainee Engineer

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    51
    Yipee kai ayy!
    I hope they add a Basic Refinery! 10x slower 10x smaller
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    Around the time that visual scripting and new drone behaviours were introduced, the turret AI targeting was moved to a parallel process. Each individual turret no longer does its own target search.
     
  18. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

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    474
    Yeah, lighting is strange now. I like having realistic dark in enclosed spaces, but the shift between light and dark is too random, seemingly. Plus, cloud effects, like when mining by ship or rocket trails are totally black in most lighting conditions. In the case of mining, the dust cloud isn't illuminated by spotlights (which was its own annoyance), just an inky black blob.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    834
    @Balmung
    @I23I7

    Sorry, guys but the "funny" tag was due to me saying it was easy? If so then I do apologize to I23I7.
    For me it seems easy taking into consideration certain things, but if a developer tells me otherwise, I´ll learn my place.

    Nevertheless if the funny was actually directed at "who gets melted first" then that´d be different.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. ILL-UMINATI Trainee Engineer

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    17
    This was post visual scripting/ new drone behaviors. Even if they don't do their own target search individually, they still do priority checks and line of sight checks for each turret. Unless they changed that in the last two months and now turrets all just shoot at the same target regardless of priority or line of sight, which would include through your own ship.
     
  21. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    Eh no worries :D You got good ideas but it would take herculean effort to rewrite certain parts of the game so that the features your describe can be implemented.
     
  22. ILL-UMINATI Trainee Engineer

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    17
    I see a lot of talk in this thread about what the game needs to feel more like a game. But let's be real here it's a sandbox game and at present, there's a significant number of systems in place that provide plenty of gameplay, if it had any content. It seems to me the development of the game has always leaned towards making features and letting the community make the content they want to play, which I fully support as a great business and game development move. The problem is everyone who is trying to make content for this game is jumping ship due to the constant, forced updates that change features and add bugs, which frustrates content creators to no end. KSWH, you've essentially contracted out the content development to the community, but are inhibiting any effort put forth by the community to do so. Every week you push out as many bugs as you do features, and every week you frustrate everyone trying to create that content. To make things worse you even removed the choice to opt out of weekly updates and merged both branches into one, forcing everyone to endure untested patch day. There's no reason to force a weekly deadline to push out a patch that you clearly dont have time to fully test every new feature or change.

    I love this game, it's the game I've always wanted since I was a kid. And I've spent the better part of three months face deep in your code, so I've seen that you guys are skilled. So it just baffles me that you're still pushing out buggy patches weekly, and now even without separate branches. If you're trying to keep player interest with weekly updates you could just as easily have weekly or even twice-weekly dev updates showing what you're working on, then have a release when it's good and ready to be. I can't say for sure, but I'd argue that you're pushing more players away than keeping with weekly buggy updates. Not to mention how much more individual longevity players would have if the community was able to be more productive, and more content for the game was available.

    I guess my point is please start being more conscientious of the community you've given the task of creating content to.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  23. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,394
    @Xocliw if you could tease any information at all regarding AI characters in a near future update video that would be super awesome.

     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  24. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

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    822
    I'm guessing it became too intelligent and started to re-write the game, so they abandoned it in fear of their safety.
     
  25. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    725
    The KEEN Gods and Lord Clang have already provided an option lately to return to the latest 'major update' for those who remain infidels, haven't they?
     
  26. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    834
    Thanks for telling me this, I can now be aware I am wrong and I was indeed too naive about it, I apreciate your time answering me.

    I also viewed yesterday´s stream with Xocliw and a guest ;), I´m now aware that there´s a lot of work being done behind the scenes. In retrospective it makes my earlier constant push for survival rather undeserved, I can now say I´m eager to see what you´re brewing up and take this as a hertfelt apology for my behavior.

    Yesterday´s stream did change a lot my stance on Keen, and it really allowed to see you guys in a diferent light. But from just looking around in the forums I wouldn´t know best, and if I wanted to know the feasility of a feature I can only get to know it by looking at the source code of the game (And that only if I know the launguage throughtfully and the intrinsics of the game and engine).

    All in all, thanks for your patience and the ffort you´re putting into this.
    --- Automerge ---
    While SE is a great sandbox and has plenty ways to play it (Which doesn´t mean they´re as engaging as just building though) it is way too limiting to really call it a total sandbox as Gmod comparatively is.
    A "pure" sandbox is where you can alter the characteristics of a block and the situation to whatever you feel like, SE is much more limited in that regard (Not accounting for Dev-screen and even then) If I could make an Ion thruster have ten times its thrust and half its weight by configurating it in-game and being able to change the game rules and blocks on a whim... Then you´d have an extremely more
    sandbox´y experience and a very different gameplay.

    And regarding bugs, well, the game is in development, and even though it is indeed Beta, the game is still receiving constant changes and its code is not yet set in stone, so... :baby: There´s not much to be done in that area, and my friends that have left the game didn´t do it really due to bugs... Server admins are a different story though.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Palpatine Duck Trainee Engineer

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    1
    Hey keen software house, let me know if you are gonna be adding in a new power supply block in the future. Also add in a new feature in the seetings of your servers or worlds where you can toggle the option to let other people deconstruct or use your cockpits and stuff like that.
     
  28. Logi Apprentice Engineer

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    170
    Weren't that just some testing for the Good AI? Like them using Space Engineers for testing?

    Stuff like this is what grinds my gears a bit with Keen. They tease stuff that in the end is not even related to Space Engineers but they are in no horry to confirm it's not for Space Engineers. Pistol and shotgun was another example, as they were for some completely different product.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,394
    No... it was testing for pathfinding for npc characters for space engineers hence it being posted on the space engineers youtube channel and it saying in the video "not public yet" meaning not in the game yet.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  30. Vaskadar Apprentice Engineer

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    357
    In response to someone who clearly doesn't want any positive changes to the current state of things...
    Some kind of progression from "Back to basics" to "Full production powerhouse" is kind of necessary to incentivize exploration.

    The "Basic Assembler" is a great idea, as is the wind generator and parachute. I'd personally be very pleased if they go ahead with improving the survival aspect of the game like they had talked about. Finding a use for gravel outside of reactor components is also another major thing. Being able to fill in voxels with some kind of concrete tool (like the mod) would be awesome.

    There's a reason people play hardcore survival servers. You're given the bare necessities to get by and you engineer your way to success. A game where you've already succeeded doesn't have much purpose to it aside from being a sandbox, hence the 'creative' mode.

    If you wanted to pull inspiration from games that do survival progression really well, look at Subnautica or Minecraft.

    There's a reason platinum is only on the moons. I hope keen expands on that.
     
    • Late Late x 1
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