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Update 02.045 - Intuitive compound block building

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. Drui Keen Update Guy KeenSWH Developer

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    Summary
    In this week's update we are enhancing the building process with a new system that helps you build more intuitively. This new system allows you to place compound blocks without using the alt key, so you will be able to do only combinations which are more useful.
    Thanks to this system, you will be able to use more blocks in survival mode in the future.



    Features
    - Intuitive compound block building

    Fixes
    - fixed DS not being able to run as a Windows service
    - fixed voxel hands crash
    - fixed spitting of grids crash
    - fixed manipulation tool crash
    - fixed bot navigation crash
    - fixed voice crash
    - fixed "Wooden floor round large" missing piece
    - fixed attached grids not cut with ctrl + x
    - fixed attached grids not affected by gravity after cut with ctrl + shift + x
    - fixed manipulation tool duplication exploit
    - fixed character removal exploit for Medieval Master tool
    - improved texts, tooltips and updated layout for Medieval Master tool

    Update
    The compound block changes introduced in the latest patch are second iteration and are not final. The main reasons why we made these changes were to properly prepare the blocks for building in survival mode and also to remove the z-fighting graphical issues.
    We hear your worries about limiting your possibilities and creativity - more block combinations will be added in the near future.
    Thanks for understanding and we are always here for you to listen to your feedback!

    - fixed crash when fire light block was fractured
    - fixed a problem when you pick up timber from ground with T it'll disappear and don't appear in the inventory
    - fixed a few server crashes
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
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  2. PsicoPato

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    WooT!

    Thanks guys! =)
     
  3. Sarekh

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    thanks alot! That will come in handy :)
     
  4. MichaelC

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    here's hoping it brings on getting all of our blocks back in surv
     
  5. kitsunelegendXx

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    Hmmm......kinda seems like your limiting creativity a little bit with the new compound system honest..... will have to keep my eyes on it to see the details of how much it limits...

    Question though, will we be seeing proceduraly generated worlds soon? I think it was mentioned back when ME was first being talked about that that was something that was being planned.... any news on that yet?

    Very happy with the fixes though! Great work yet again KSH. Looking forward to whats next. :)
     
  6. Shabazza

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    "You will be able to use more blocks in survival" - I guess they meant: "You are forced to use more blocks in survival"...
    Having soem auto-mode os fine.
    But why denying us to build how we want?
     
  7. Thermonuklear

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    More blocks in the future confirmed!
     
  8. TheFurryLion

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    WOODEN STAIRS IN SURVIVAL JUST DO IT ALREADY !!
     
  9. extraammo

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    I hope being able to control compound block compatibility is a step towards having them in SE.
     
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  10. Thomas_Jefferson

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    Nice! More fixes than features, which is good IMO!
     
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  11. Nezortek

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    Why the voxel system change!!:eek: My french community prefere the old system of voxel like mining for example.:mad: Now the voxel system is bad plz change to the old version. :(
     
  12. waterlimon

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    Take that, z-fighting! :p
     
  13. Tenzo

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    I really don't like this update because you are limiting the creative tools to "what you think the block should orient into" as opposed to, I want this block precisely to orient the way I want it to.

    I mean seriously??? I've waited 5 months for this game to improve, there is still no stone tile floor, and now you are taking away from what you are able to do with the blocks???

    What do you people work on there, Medieval Engineers has seen such minuscule updates compared to Space Engineers. Your "Artificial Brain" project?

    You employ artists? Even if they created one block per update, that would be something. The game hasn't seen a single new block for ages. Which makes one wonder, if you do employ artists and they don't work on commission, what do those guys do there all day? Nothing? Redo Space Engineers blocks to look more pretty? Spend 5 hours a day to remove one more triangle from said blocks?

    This game was in a better state than it is now, when you first released it. It had that "in-house development" feel, stuff just worked the way it was made to, without outside influences to take the project a million different ways until there is no focus anymore and the game becomes disjointed. This is what is happening to ME right now. The game is becoming more and more disjointed. The community is splintered, not sure what to make of the game and probably waiting to give it more time until you fix it into one single game with an identity, which is obviously not going to happen soon. The title is losing its original identity the more updates it goes through.

    Also, if you really want to help people create their own blocks, how about you make a tutorial that is not for 3DS Max with a Havok addon, yeah thanks for that - very helpful, that is a $3000 piece of software. Why don't you make a tutorial using a tool like Blender? Which is free, and everyone can use.

    Now that you have removed custom compound block building, I think I am too done with the game. I'm not going to play this game in a watered down state.

    That is unacceptable. At least add a toggle for people who do want to build blocks that you showed won't be possible anymore. And just leave that as an option for creative mode.

    But not this. This is a slap in the face to everyone who enjoys building wonky things just to see what is possible. Nope, can't do that anymore. Can't be unique or creative anymore. You're going to build things the way Keen wants you to build things using their "automated system".

    Seriously?? Who even asked for an automated system?? How about just having the game build itself? What's the point?

    I'm going to backup the version of ME I currently have, without this "automatic system" and just never update the game again, and play it with Steam in offline mode when I want to go back to the good old days.

    Thanks developers, you ruined the way I play the game. Really really sad face. :(
     
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  14. zDeveloper10

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    if they did,Space engineers blocks would look a lot prettier by now.
     
  15. OmEgA_StOrM

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    I am not sure if I like the update I think it would be better to have this feature as an option.
    So that If you use it you have a few less possibilities to build certain blocks but you can build more.
    On the other hand if you don't use it you can be a bit more creative but you just can build less in total.
     
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  16. tharkus

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    Nice update :)
     
  17. extraammo

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    This is an important addition to the building system that allows better block design and maintenance. Being able to combine every block with every block was never a promised feature so them properly defining which blocks actually work together is not removing creativity.
     
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  18. Tenzo

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    I really don't agree with your statement, extraammo.

    First of all, they never said compound blocks would have limitations, only that you could use them in that way (blocks into blocks). They never specified limitations other than weight distribution.

    Also, how does it allow "better" block design? Who are you to say that your design is better than someone else's because they built theirs differently? That is a matter of perception, so that point fails absolutely.

    And yes, it is limiting creativity. But hey, if you believe an automated building system that takes no input from your brain to design pretty things in different ways, but just does it automatically, in a way IT thinks is best, is better for the game, then go for it. But don't try to defend it from a moral highground.

    To me, this is an example of developer LAZINESS.

    Look in the video, in the examples of block combinations that are no longer possible. Do you notice something? That's right, all the textures for said blocks are flickering.

    There are many occurrences in the game where textures begin to flicker, these are even present when placing wooden beams as reinforcements into hay roofs for example. You will get texture flickering at the ends of the beams. I reported this bug months ago, when the "bug fixing and stabilization period" began.

    So, instead of fixing the actual problem, which is touching upon the reason why there is so much texture flickering in the game, they have completely BUTCHERED they way you can place blocks together so that they don't have to give it a second thought about fixing texture flickering properly and then just move on.

    That is being LAZY, and it is not a "feature".
     
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  19. JuStX2

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    It is too! Besides "working together" doesn't always achieve the ends meant to happen. I can understand some limitations like ropes going to rope holders, that's a "mechanical" limit, but this is a "creative" limit, and personally I don't like it - I don't care what new "fantastic" blocks Keen comes out with, nothing warrants this lack of creative design. I already had Issues with ME from the point they added voice chat, I haven't played online because of that feature, now I just think until you bring back the old system I'm not going to play at all. Also, Designs being what they are, your going to expect some things to not work toogether - natural is not "do-it-by-the-book" - and if you really want to add blocks that are so important how about sharing their capabilities and functions before you make a stupid change like this. The Community deserves the right to see what's so important that you'd sacrifice a critical "fun" element - instead of "Oh this'll let us do cool things with blocks"

    In fact - if this doesn't get reversed quickly, I will tell you ME will be getting another negative review on Steam, no pressure.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
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  20. Arona_Daal

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    As it may limit creativity, I am sure there was some executive decision to implement this Intuitive Building Mechanic. Or some reason why they had to do it. Maybe it was going create some issues in future feature implementation or new block types they have planned. Or some said "Trying to build in this game sucks. How do I know to press ALT again? This is stupid.". I do not know. It would be really cool for the Devs to give everyone some insight on the "Whys" for changes that create backlash such as this feature. I would not go as far as saying they are "Lazy", I mean they did re-worked an entire base feature. So Why all the work if it would create an upset?

    Also as for modding, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like you need to export your models as an FBX which can be done with MAYA, 3DSMax, Softimage, and Blender. Some of which you can download a 3rd party plugin to accomplish this. Exporting models to FBX seems pretty common now a days. So people can start making the blocks that are not possible anymore like the ones in the video. I understand it is not really a solution to underlying problem that is the creative use of in game blocks, but hey we are here now and this is the new state of the game so we have to adapt. This is a game in development, and yes our input is very important to them. But I would not start insulting the developers, this is in alpha and the way you build could very well go back to its original state.

    Anyways, I am very excited to see how this game evolves over time. I mean SE has had many ups and downs and crazy changes. But at least the devs are outputting work. Every. Single. Week. Sure, it's not at a pace we all wish it was, but it is still progression and that is a lot to say for an Early access game now a days. So keep it up Keen. I would not mind 2 week sprints where the updates were larger. In my ideal world :)

    Good Job Keen. Keep kickin' ass.
     
  21. extraammo

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    The whole "limit creativity" thing isn't really a valid idea. They've reduced possibilities from an infinite amount to a lesser infinite amount...

    By block design I mean from the developer's end. They can make blocks that look better together since they can know which ones can go together. Being able to overlap any block in any combination is also an invitation to exploits once this game gets more competitive. All Keen is doing with this update is properly fleshing out the building system.

    I honestly think that they should change the blocks with this addition to remove most of the overlaps. It would be better to have a set of smaller pieces that let you build out the larger blocks.
     
  22. GreatBeard

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    I completely agree. This takes away from the fun of creative building. Because of the very small roster of blocks at our disposal, users had to get creative and combine to create. Which was one of the main selling features of this game for me.

    I also have been waiting for improvements and NEW BLOCKS!! I look forward to Tuesday nights, and I havent been excited about updates in a long while. I really appreciate the fact that they have to do bugfixes and balancing and all that, but I see the game that I love growing further and further away from the gem it could be. It's like having a set of legos and taking away most pieces.... and limiting how you can put them together. I have been looking forward to seeing improvements on the compound building for ages, and this developent breaks my heart. FIX IT, make it better, dont delete it. It feels like they are dummying the game down for the unthinking masses.

    How about a few decorative elements, tiled floors, or some more walls and windows, arrow slits, chains maybe? Some interactive doors and glass windows/shutters, give us something!

    SAVE Medieval engineers!

    Edit 1: I feel so strongly about this that I actually posted here for the first time EVER!
     
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  23. Ruarc88

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    To everyone getting butt-hurt about compound blocks, get over it. 1, it's KSH's game to do with as they wish. 2, it is in an alpha state so absolutely NOTHING is set in stone. And 3, think about it from a functional side and not a creative side and you'll see that it makes perfect sense.

    To the devs, you honestly need to stop listening to the community because the problem with listening to the community is you're listening to the loudest group and not the majority. If only 1 person thinks something is terrible and needs to change, obviously, only 1 member of the community will be giving feedback. The other thousands of people in the community won't, but those are the people most affected. This has been an issue in game development for years and needs to stop across the board. Features, functionality, tweaks, etc need justification beyond "this select portion of the community wants it so we'll make the change for them as well as the 99% of the rest of the community that kept their mouths shut." There are 100s if not 1000s of active players of this game yet this update post only has 23 replies. That is miles away from any accurate representation of the community.
     
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  24. Martinineter

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    Well, this is actually rather nice
     
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  25. Tenzo

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    You didn't even have to hold Alt. You could just press X and automatic compound building would be turned on by default, then you could just build and fit pieces as you wanted.
     
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  26. Drui Keen Update Guy KeenSWH Developer

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    Update
    The compound block changes introduced in the latest patch are second iteration and are not final. The main reasons why we made these changes were to properly prepare the blocks for building in survival mode and also to remove the z-fighting graphical issues.
    We hear your worries about limiting your possibilities and creativity - more block combinations will be added in the near future.
    Thanks for understanding and we are always here for you to listen to your feedback!

    - fixed crash when fire light block was fractured
    - fixed a problem when you pick up timber from ground with T it'll disappear and don't appear in the inventory
    - fixed a few server crashes
     
    • Like Like x 2
  27. Tenzo

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    You know, this is kind of a backwards way of dealing with the texture flickering issues in certain block combinations.

    It's like you guys have just given up on fixing that and this automated system is your way of moving forward, but at the cost of what people enjoy most in the game - a near full interactivity with the blocks. The process of not knowing what you're going to make and figuring out something with blocks in a way you didn't before, is what gives ME its creative charm, please, please don't take that away because you gave up on the texture flickering issue which can sometimes happen.

    If I may, in the effort of not giving up and providing an alternate road for you guys to pursue regarding the graphical issues - may I suggest for you guys to look into non standard texture placement? Or rather, using textures in a 90% standard, 10% non standard way.

    What I mean by that is, they don't have to be coded into the blocks themselves and then retain that persistent state throughout the block's longevity.

    I suggest for you guys to look into how ZBrush handles texture projection.

    It is a function that originated as "3D Copy" (even in new versions, they should still have the 3D Copy button in there, somewhere), which is basically dropping the 3D model on the canvas, then painting on the model as if it was 2 dimensional, then pressing the button and the program "picks up" the 3D model again and transfers the captured 2D information onto the model.

    What this means for ME is this: When you place down a block, you can have its texture information projected onto connecting blocks if the proper (read: standard) texture connection is not found. A basically If/Else check algorithm using your system for "valid connections" that you have instated using this automated compound building system. But instead of isolating the user from said block placements, go into the Else texture application, and project the texture onto the block as if it was Zbrush's 3D Copy function (basically the 10% non standard way of handling textures). That way, there is no flickering and there is no reason for you to limit the user because of graphical issues you cannot account for at all times.

    Because with texture projection, these would not exist. There would be no texture fighting for which is the top layer and so on. You would have one layer, with projected texture information, while still retaining proper UV seams.

    Your problem is in your method of handling, not on the user's end. Therefore, it has to be handled in the method of handling, not place restrictions on the user, because the method of handling is not good enough. Let's make it good enough.

    You can even make it so that the projected texture blurs around the edges so that it blends into the texture underneath better. Just have one layer for textures, and project the ones you don't have proper connection points for onto said layer.
    Surely, for coders who have been able to make an Articial Brain capable of drawing its own representations of mountains and landscapes, you can do this one simple thing.

    It's a matter of understanding the concept, really, and applying it with code.

    Unfortunately, since you guys are programmers, you are probably not aware of this procedure in Zbrush, which is a modeling and texturing tool. However, I am sure that your modeler/artists are familiar with Zbrush and could point you in the right direction if you want to investigate this particular way of applying textures to objects.

    Texture Projection! That is what you are looking for to solve the graphical issues. Not this heavy handed, butchering of the building process for the end user in order to make sure they don't run into combinations that you haven't managed to have correct texture blending for. The end user is not the enemy! So please don't treat us as such.

    That is really, really poor form. I hope you guys can find a way to resolve the texture issues and have the system behave in the way it did in the past, with user interactivity.

    Not an automated building process. Even if you plan a second iteration of it, if the concept is bad, it will continue to be bad in its second iteration, and this concept is really bad. Free compound building is your Trump feature, why would you hack it down to pieces and not continue to innovate and keep it in all its glory?

    Please don't give up on this, and scrap this automated system.

    Start over on the problem.

    To give up on this issue, and continue to instate this system, is to give up on what made Medieval Engineers special. It is to give up on the game as a whole, because this idea of compound building, and having blocks blend into each other like clay in order to create new blocks, so to speak, is what makes Medieval Engineers different from all other games.

    Take that away, and you take away its soul. It is no longer the same game that compels me to play it.

    Please, look into texture projection. Continue to refine and innovate with code, on your end, not removing options from our end.

    Thanks for listening.

    After all, it is a matter of pride for Keen Software House as well, is it not? You guys pride yourselves on innovation, and having to cut out a feature like this, is like you guys are losing a part of your company's soul, your identity. Admitting you were not good enough to solve it in a different way. So, please don't give up, because if you do, we all lose. You guys lose pride in a feature you have pioneered, and we lose something we have grown to love, the free form, explorative interaction with blocks. Everyone loses!
     
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  28. zDeveloper10

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    indeed. more complicated building methods are trickier to make, and thus I applaud anyone who tries and succeeds. it was going pretty well before, to cut it back would be to take several steps back from an achievement already earned. if the game will continue to be built on this rather than throwing it in as an emergency fix for whatever reason and then fixing the realdeal later, it will not be as good
     
  29. extraammo

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    @Tenzo Why are you acting like there is some severe limitation to your ability to make good looking castle by this feature? And flickering is only one of the issues solved by this feature.

    It doesn't make sense to be able to overlap any combination of blocks. That was never the original intention. You have to think about how survival is supposed to work with compound blocks as well.

    "Creativity" is not a reason.
    "Options" are still infinite.
    EVERYTHING is subject to CHANGE.

    If you were in game development you would realize what this feature means for the future.
     
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  30. UnstableOrbit

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    Ok, I thought about this for a little while before posting, because I am aware that this may make me sound like an a--hole. However, I feel I need to say this anyways. Please don't take this the wrong way.

    You say "thanks for understanding," but that's the thing. I DON'T understand. I DON'T understand why this is the route you guys chose to take! I could go on about creativity and compound blocks being one of ME's bigger draws and how there were better options, but I feel like that has already been stated well enough by posts above. I'm just going to state that I don't understand why you chose one of the more undesirable options from a gameplay point of view. I personally compare this to sending a Ferrari to a junkyard because it had a flat tire, and trading in for something that doesn't perform as well just because you don't want another flat tire. But what do I know, I'm just a player who keeps hoping that the next update will rekindle my interest in ME.

    *raises shields in preparation for flak storm*
     
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