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Update 1.181.0 Major - Big Optimizations, Multithreaded Physics & More!

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by flexx, Jun 1, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    458
    O...M...g. These hotfixes Keen, Keen these hotfixes.... O... M... g. Every day.. Really? Really... Every day?

    Did you test anything? Anything at all? At any point?

    I'm just mad because I switched a DS to a laptop at work, set up everything, set up port forwarding and when the bell finally rings I head home to try out the server, and HOTFIX before I got home. It would be funny if the exact same damned thing hadn't happened yesterday.

    You're making some form of progress KSH... finally. But these hotfixes... OMG.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    208
    I actually like the Hydrogen drain in creative (you can get around it by having generators hooked up). When building hydrogen, testing the hydrogen usage to eventually port to survival is awesome. Its one bug I really do like.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    399
    The problem with that theory is that it does NOT evenly distribute all ice fuel between the oxygen generators like the reactors do. I despise that bug as quite literally I can't use 99% of the ships without having to tediously load ice into sometimes 60+ oxygen generators that gets pissed away before I can even load them all. In my case I had a dreadnought I had put a good bit of work into refitting crash to the ground due to that drain bug. since it was in the process of a refit not all of the systems were properly hooked in and right now I have quite a bit of work on hold purely due to that bug. If this was something that could be turned on and off then sure not a bad option to have. However it needs to get fixed as no other resources drains like that in creative and neither should that. So until that bug gets fixed pretty much the entirety of my game has come to a screeching halt. If I'm going to port something to survival I'll just load up my survival testing world and poof up a blueprint.
     
  4. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    208
    It depends on how you operate and use your ship, quantity of oxygen generators, tanks and quantity of ice on hand.

    Conditions to be in that scenario:
    • Insufficient ice
    • Multiple oxygen generators
    In that resource scenario, things to note:
    • Oxy Gen will pull as much ice as it can to fill up its inventory (and keep itself topped up when any ice is used).
    • In the event that there is less Ice than an oxygen gen would pull without being maxed out, the first inline will pull all the ice and you'd have to manually move ice around.
    • Mass of Hydrogen tank vs mass of Ice needed to fill a hydrogen tank. Key note that hydrogen is a massless stored resource compared to ice.
    • Processing speed of ice vs hydrogen storage (as 1 small hydrogen thruster caps a single oxygen generator output (its like 1.1 or 1.2 small hydrogen thrusters per oxy gen)
    • A creative mode oxygen generator needs no ice to create hydrogen.

    If you are running out of hydrogen, then the oxygen generators might not be the issue, its probably your ratio of hydrogen tanks vs number of thrusters you have. I usually do 1 hydrogen tank per 1 large thruster and 4 small lateral/rcs thrusters if building for sustained lift (like exiting planets etc). With that, it is usually enough for 1 oxygen generator per tank to keep it topped up. If you want prolonged sustain, will need tanks for that.

    If built for burst/afterburner, I go up to 3/maybe 4 large hydrogen thrusters per tank or 12-15 small hydrogen thrusters. But hydrogen usually isn't the main source of sustain in this case, just used for acceleration.

    I guess I'm not understanding how you're having issues in creative.

    I do like that tanks drain in creative though. It allows to test so much stuff in creative like air control systems etc with air vents, hydrogen, depressurization etc.
     
  5. Mike55520 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    437
    even in creative i use conveyors on all ships, and the oxygen gens are all attached to a central cargo container dedicated to ice, they automatically pull even amounts at once to each gen.
     
  6. tmike Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    107
    only way I have found to fix that, is to use something like TIM
     
  7. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    399
    I think my saying oxygen generators with a S at the end is pretty self explanatory as it denotes a plural sense of the word. Ice is more than in abundance on my worlds and on the testing worlds I can simply spawn ice if I have to so no insufficient ice is not the problem. In terms of oxygen generators vs hydrogen tanks and so on. All of my hydrogen based ships have multiple tanks and multiple oxygen generators to supply them with fuel. The ship in question is a large dreadnought type of ship and in fact is the largest ship in my fleet. In fact it's the large dreadnought in the brief bug report video in this thread so it's not a little ship. Since the bug started to happen at a time when the ship was being refitted at best she had about 1/4 of her fuel systems operating and properly connected since fuel systems was one of the things being addressed in the design. In a properly working creative mode that's more than enough to keep the ship in the air. However with the bug draining the fuel it was not enough for me to even land the ship. Tanks sit at only 50% capacity in creative mode so not only did I have about 1/4 the fuel capacity that I normally would have, but it also drained stupid fast since the tanks themselves are set to 50% in creative mode. Plus the drain is also eating my ice fuel when it should not be.

    As for your scenario it would work and be valid IF creative and survival modes were both working perfectly. However creative mode with that drain is not working properly. I will explain.

    1: In creative mode oxygen generators have an unlimited inventory size. So if you wanted to put 2 billion kilos of ice into a single generator you can do it. Since the generators have an unlimited capacity in that mode. In survival they do indeed spread the ice around until they're all filled up or you run out of ice, whatever happens first. However in creative that is simply not the default behavior of the generators without a script or some other complicated system at play.
    2: Manually moving the ice around is the only way to make it work in creative without having to use a script or some other complicated system. The bug is behaving as though the hydrogen is in survival mode and as such is using up my ice as well. So even if I were to manually move around all the ice, it would be depleted by the time I could get it to all the generators.
    3: In a perfectly working creative mode, they would not need the ice to function, however creative mode at the moment is NOT in perfect working order thanks to that bug. Ordinarily your scenario would be correct if everything was in working order, however again, a bug is in play preventing normal functionality.

    The issue was having at best 1/4 of my normal fuel capacity and fuel system functionality due to the ship being in the middle of the refit. Now combo that with the fact that the tanks I did have connected were only at 50% full thanks to creative mode limiting them to 50% and the oxygen generators that were connected were not enough to keep it working for more than a few seconds and boom, crash. So 1/4 of the normal fuel systems in operation, and of the tanks that were working they only had 50% hydrogen in them anyways. The potential to sustain and so on was/is there, but it had not been fully connected yet at the time of the bug. To put this in perspective with a hypothetical, if there were 8 tanks on the ship, only 2 were connected and there was only enough hydrogen present in the tanks to equal a full tank. If there were 40 oxygen generators present, only 10 would have been operating. Because of this the only other copy of that dreadnought I have without losing hours of work is the one in my backup copy of that testing world as I don't have a blueprint of the work in progress. So considering that I have several hours of work in limbo at this point you can understand my frustration. I was not expecting such a major bug like that to occur otherwise I would have taken additional precautions.

    In other words, i didn't have everything connected that would normally be connected as the ship was still a work in progress. What was there was only half full and had limited sustain compared to what would normally be available. I expected the drain bug not to be present and I was wrong. I load the world up, drain bug occurs, ship crashes to the ground due to bug. Not exactly getting what's hard to understand about that.

    If you like the bug that's cool, but it still needs to get fixed as it's not supposed to be there. If Keen wants to add an option to give us Survival tools in creative mode to enable a drain, that I would not be opposed to. This in its bugged state however needs to go.

    If yours is doing something like that then you're either using a script or a more complicated setup than I am. As I said above about 1/4 of the normal systems on the ship were connected. Of those connected things were the cargo holds that hold the ice fuel. I'm not sure what type of creative mode you've been playing in but they have NEVER distributed evenly in creative mode for me. As I explained above in a properly working creative mode the generators have an unlimited capacity. When they go to pull ice the one generator pulls all of the ice to itself. Now in survival they will distribute evenly, but in creative without doing it manually, using a script, or some super complicated thing then they will not.

    That's exactly the point I've been getting at and why there needs to be an option to set them to automatically distribute evenly in creative mode. Without a script or something complicated they just simply don't do that.
     
  8. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    208
    The ice eating in creative is really weird. I tested it yesterday, and in creative, no ice was eaten or pulled until I exited the game and switched it to survival. Then it pulled/consumed said ice. Upon switching back to creative after ice was pulled, the ice was not being consumed anymore.

    I get the same behavior as Mike. As long as there is sufficient ice, each generator will pull as much as it can to keep itself topped up. Are you sure while you were doing modifications to your ship, that some of the conveyor passages didn't get disconnected? I build similar to Mike, but I used to always attach large hydrogen thrusters directly onto the large hydro thrusters themselves as part of my design philosphy (I don't do that anymore as I prefer centralized production vs damage resistant production as it was a pain to maintain, even though it was more redundant.)

    I just tested in creative to be sure. Created a large cargo container filled with 500,000 ice with power off. Attached was 4 empty oxygen generators, sorter (whitelist to control ice flow from cargo), a hydrogen tank (54%) and a reactor. Switched to survival and put fuel into the reactor, and each oxygen generator pulled about 108k worth of ice within moments of the power going on and was filling the hydrogen tank. (The hydrogen tank was 'creative' built, so oxygen generators were filling it up as soon as powered without needing ice, so had to switch the reactor off to not bug my test until I was in survival.)

    You can see my test setup here:
    [​IMG]

    For the sake of testing, after work I'll try doing a 100 oxygen generator test setup with an LCD to monitor contents via inventory management. Maybe it is related to large number of oxy gens. I'll try with/without sorter to see if that could be causing a chokepoint on that test.
     
  9. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    399
    If there's a simple way to get it to distribute the ice evenly without having to resort to scripts or using a stupidly complicated setup then I'm all ears as that solves one problem. However that doesn't solve my other problem of the drain. As quick as that fuel drained there will not be enough time for me to load the backup save and snap a blueprint of the work in progress before it hits the ground. So quite literally until that bug is fixed my work on that ship can't proceed.

    If any conveyors had broken loose it would have had to happen literally the moment the world loaded and it would have had to occur on both sides of the ship at once. There was no clang or explosions of any type on loading in. Simply me stepping into the cockpit chair and noticing the fuel gauge just before she hit empty and plummeted to the ground. Some of the connections had been removed temporarily prior to the update during the refit, but I made doubly sure that there were enough connections to keep the ship in the air until I could get finish work on the bulk of the fuel systems. If it's as simple as adding conveyor sorters then that's great as that solves that problem. Though even with sorters I have never gotten them to auto-distribute evenly. I've not used them on that ship as I had never saw a need for them before hand. Even then I have never been able to get those things to do what I needed them to. There are in excess of 80 oxygen generators and 8 tanks on the ship at the time of refit. Only about 1/4 of those were operating and until that bug happened that was more than enough to keep it in the air for me to do what I needed it to do.

    For your test I would advise replacing the sorter with just a straight up conveyor block and connect that to the tanks as I have never used sorters on that ship as they were never needed prior. If the sorters solve the equal distribution issue then that's great and I hope it does turn out to be that simple. The next issue I would need to figure out is a way to get in and snap a blueprint before the ship hits the ground. If I can do that I could at least get the thing into space and keep building. Reactors have always auto-distributed for me with and without the sorters. Oxygen generators however never have.
     
  10. JuStX2 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    312
    Can you flip the glass on the planetary lander? i think it's on the wrong way....
     
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