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Update 1.181.2 Minor - Beta improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by flexx, Jun 15, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. CodeMonkey1001 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    19
    KSW, any chance we can start getting patch notes for these mid-week ninja patches? I myself am waiting for a couple of bugs to be fixed and would prefer to read if it was fixed rather than spending 15-20 minutes in the game to see if this mid-week patch fixed it. If another mid-week patch was provided again, then I'd repeat the 15-20 minutes again and again.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    I had the same problem flying over a planet. I figured it was just a bugged out planet. I had to fight the direction change really hard with my gyroscopes.
     
  3. shadoskill Trainee Engineer

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    7
    So how about those hotfix changelogs? Shouldn't take more then 5 minutes to copy and paste/type out some text and edit the main post. :D
     
  4. zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

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    742
    KeenSWH be like "we made so many hotfixes because we wanted to see if something is fixed. but we won't tell you what we tried to fix, so you can't tell us whether it worked or not"
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    We need some people to barge in on one of them fancy steams they do and demand proper patch notes...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    I have experienced something similar that might be related

    Firstly, most people don't like to go long distances because it's "boring", so anything over 100 meters they haul out the jump drive. Those of us that don't mind spending time in the craft we built have noticed that being out of some sort of seat while moving will result in your character being teleported across a room or even through a wall. In this game "space" is made up of sectors and when your ship passes between sectors your character may not always get the memo in time I guess.

    More to the point, I have been working on a scenario using the Star System Map. I had a rudimentary base set up on Earthlike's Moon. Shortly after we got 1.180.1 I noticed some wild CPU usage fluctuations while near (within 200 meters) the moon, then the moon disappeared completely. The base remained but it was not static and I had to fly to it and blueprint it before I lost it entirely. Once the moon disappeared the CPU calmed down. I had deleted all previous saves so I decided to just keep going without the moon. However things behaved strangely in the space the moon previously occupied so I eventually just started over with a new Star System.

    I am trying to use autopilots to move my ships around. In this new world I am still primarily doing things around Earthlike's Moon. I have noticed that as my craft approach within 15 kilometers of the moon the craft will slow dramatically (Not lag. The craft actually slows down) and generally will not exceed 25 m/s. The moon's gravity well does not extend beyond 2800 meters yet something is affecting my autopilot kilometers away from the moon. I am currently trying to find if there is perhaps some sort of new boundary surrounding celestial bodies.



    Also, as much as some people would like to have hotfixes explained, it's probably not worth the effort. Most of the fixes they do publish never seem to affect me, although I'm sure they do in some sort of round about way. Point is the list they do publish doesn't seem to tell you everything, and I suspect a hotfix list would probably be even less interesting.

    Let's face it... we look at the bugfix list to see if rotors and pistons are on it. They're not likely to sneak a rotor/piston fix into a hotfix patch. Posting a hotfix list will only provide the haters with yet another opportunity to point out that their pet peeve has again not been addressed. It is also highly likely that since hotfixes are... hot... stating that the hotfix works would simply be premature. Regular fixes get lots of testing (whether you believe it or not ;)) but hotfixes are quick and dirty so no promises. I wouldn't list them either. Frankly, since hotfixes are usually dispatched to address issues caused by the regular update we usually know if they worked or not. After all, we all know within minutes what the update broke. If there's a hotfix and it's still broken, it didn't work. There's no mystery here.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,778
    You need to write it like this + added r to steams

    We need some people to barge in on one of them fancy streams they do and demand proper patch notes...

    Also.. put @Xocliw in bondage...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Mr_w Trainee Engineer

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    43
    where going for hotfixes everyday? now almost for 3 weeks stright?
    wth is going on.. tell us what these fixes intent todo please.
     
  9. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    sometimes auto spellcheck correct is your enemy... :(
     
  10. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    536
    Foolishness.

    I bought into an open access game with the full understanding that there is a contract between the developers and the users to help bring this game to completion. The developers ask for our feedback on these forums and in the weekly update videos. We can't do that without accurate information about what has changed, or what they intended to change, in updates to the game. Simple as that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,778
    Argentavis does not produce drones anymore... had a run in with one today and it didn't do anything.
     
  12. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,546
    Drones don't spawn, bullets don't kill players... the game's gone all pacifist this week. :)
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  13. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    814
    Things I reported happened while I was in the main cockpit pilot's seat, with external view (v-key) on, otherwise I let the game just run and watch from time to time if the crosshair needs redirecting, while I do other things on a second computer (screen). Thanks for the input, but in my case it is not related to my character moving around in the ship.
     
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  14. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    Did you ever think of just asking Xocliw or whoever is on stream about what some of the hotfixes were doing or attempting to do? I've asked him about a few issues before and he's told me one way or another what he knew. Straight up demanding things in a situation like that and disrupting the stream will just make them not want to post notes at all. I agree with as many hotfixes as they're putting out that they should say something about them even if it's just as simple as "we're trying to fix X, let us know if it works." With so much going on I want to know what is being done as well. However I would much rather them keep doing what they're doing and get fixes out there. Namely turrets and that annoying hydrogen drain in creative are what I want to see fixed above all else at the moment. With that said give it time. I would rather them take their time and get it right in one go than have to crank 30-40 different fixes. If it means getting stuff fixed I can live without patch notes for awhile.

    If they told you about every single little change they make to the code it would make your head spin most likely. I absolutely agree they should at least say "we're trying to fix X, let us know if it worked," or something like that. If it's just attempted to restore basic functionality to something then I don't see that needing too much of a patch note. As long as they get it fixed we can live without patch notes for awhile. If it's that huge of a deal just put something in with the regular thursday updates.

    my missile turrets still worked last time I checked as long as I fired them manually. the gatlings didn't do crap but those did, unless something broke them between now and then.

    I've been guilty of hauling the jump drive out really soon :D. Though it usually depends on what I'm doing as to if I just fly for a bit or hit the jump drive. Sometimes I just fly around because reasons. Other times if I'm trying to establish a base somewhere I'll fire up the jump so I can get to work. Just depends honestly. I haven't had any of my ships outright jerk like any of you guys have, but some of them have felt like they've been moving alot slower than they used to. My speedometer will say I'm pulling 100m/s but it feels like I'm barely moving at 1/4 of that.
     
  15. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    The only contract you had is with Steam or whoever you bought the game from. The contract was, "I give you this money and you hand over a copy of the game." Both of those obligations have been fulfilled.

    You did not buy any rights to any information nor did you buy any rights to be part of the development process. If you had you would be eligible for a percentage of any further profit. You are not. The information you get is the information they freely give (plus what @Xocliw leaks ;)). I won't go so far as to say you're lucky they tell us anything. There's plenty of stuff i'd like them to explain but, if the decision comes to explaining themselves or fixing the game, I say fix the game. If they fix things it won't matter if they were previously broken.

    I wonder how helpful it would be for Keen to have everybody know every detail of everything. Every one of us already believes they know more about Space Engineers than Keen. Imagine how we would be if we had a chance to... comment... on every single decision?

    Hotfixes just usually stop symptoms but are not necessarily the cure. That's why they're not even announced. They just happen. You're already pissed because something isn't working. If the hotfix doesn't work you're still pissed, just not as pissed as you would be if they said they fixed it and they didn't.

    Believe it or not, sometimes they don't need our help.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    536
    I am not talking about a contract in the legal sense. The whole premise Keen has established is predicated on open communication with the user base to provide feedback on development. Communication is a transactional process. That means information must flow both ways. Keen needs to do more in regards to communication about these hotfixes- certainly more than the vague explaination offered in the last update video.

    @Stardriver907 People are already commenting on every little decision. However, those comments are colored by frustration and ignorance born of inadequate communication concerning hotfixes. Most of what you say is true if this was a traditionally developed game. But it is not; we have the product and are their testers as much as their consumers.

    I go far as to say Keen is lucky to have a user-base that is willing to do this, still, three years on.

    And by the way, please don't exaggerate. No one is asking for "every detail of everything." The very clearly stated suggestion is to do more to inform us of the intent of hotfixes in a timely fashion. That's all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  17. Betty Gates Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    8
    I spent 2 hours redoing my setup because connectors didn't work then redid my space miners with turrets only to get blown up again,cause the turrets wouldn't fire, lol. I didn't know one little hotfix could change so much. So I spent some time on the forums trying to figuire out what happened. Only had the game for a few weeks at the time. Found out it's simple just look at the bug reports part of the forum. Most of the time they update the bug report when a fix has been put in. Works way better than a report of what a hotfix contains. I think the way Keen does this is better in someways. Gives the devs, moderators, PR, etc time to do there jobs. Also gives the person a week to translate the changes in code to things most people can understand. The community and staff have been great so far even when some of the game changes have been frustrating one day works...next day no. I saw in a blog where Keen lists the employees jobs etc. Keen does have paid beta testers. I thought it was all on us to beta test. Keen does things different and it makes sense now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    I'm not. Hotfixes are details not worth trying to explain or even comment on. They are a last gasp to correct the most common reported errors and/or some sort of an adjustment. Then they go home and start again Monday.

    Your stance suggests that you feel people that paid for the game are entitled to hotfix information. What you actually get here is exclusive information. If you read/participate in Keen's forums and Keen's streams you will get information you can't get anywhere else. That said, you still only get what they want to give you.

    They want your feedback on updates so they created the Change Log. They want your feedback on bugs so the created the Bug Report forum. These and other forums suggest that if they wanted your feedback on hotfixes they'd ask for it. They have determined it's not worth the effort. You may not agree but it's their call. If SE fails it won't be because they didn't give us a timely report on hotfixes.

    On the other hand, it's not uncommon for more involved players to notice a hotfix has come out and readily report any observations they have made. Sometimes just saying something didn't work doesn't tell Keen what happened. You get a totally different response pattern when you don't tip off the response group. It's a valid way to get information.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    536
    Ummm... not recently, which is the whole point. First, the devs have often "commented on" hotfixes, typically by editing the first post in threads like these. However, it is not a consistent practice-- the whole argument is that, it should be. Second, the fact that they have been hotfixing at a far more increased rate belies both your claims that hotfixes are unimportant and a solitary "last gasp." Third, and most importantly, the recent spate of hotfixes have actually broken things, as is well documented in the bugs forum. Hence, again, hotfixes are significant.

    No, my stance is not about being "entitled." It is about the simple, proven premise that effective communication leads to more desirable and effective results.

    You're saying hotfixes are some sort of socio-scientifc probe designed to assess how well the game is working by measuring a lack of response on the part of an always shifting and dubiously engaged player-base. Okay... keep clutching at those straws.

    What are you really concerned about here? Why would the exchange of more information be bad? Or are you just rankled by what you perceive is a sense of "entitlement?" Or do you perceive some sort of unfair attack on the developers?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  20. Sykel Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    24
    In my opinion, Keen keeps secretly their development, probably because other video game companies make a copy-paste of SE content in their game. SE is a game that has been under the spotlight for a long time.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  21. gchristopher Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    132
    3rd person view is still broken in 1.181.202. It's always frustrating to see previously fixed problems reappear.


    Keen should release simple, minimal, patch notes with all releases and hotfixes out of simple, intelligent self-interest.

    Keen does an exceptional job of change throughput, but they have demonstrated terrible change control discipline. Having to apply, reapply, and fix the same issues is expensive. They pay in pure cash in staff hours to reapply fixes repeatedly, in their testers validating that something has been fixed again, and in KSH brand value through lost player goodwill.

    Consider the much-maligned welder radius change. No SE player should have any confidence that Keen is even CAPABLE of picking and sticking to that change, one way or the other. Keen can't even manage a coherent statement of what it should be. Every release is a gamble on what will be applied, because for some reason Keen can't release a version without some risk of old, obsolete code sneaking in.

    To all external observations, Keen is to some degree out of control of their own changes. Adequate revision control practices internally are how they could start to fix this expensive problem, and patch notes are a near-universal part of even minimal revision control practices.

    Path notes are one way Keen can demonstrate, to themselves if nothing else, that they are making changes on purpose and when changes are not related in any way to the patch notes, how they can mobilize the player base to alert them to unintended changes. That free (if sometimes acerbic and stressful) feedback is how Keen could start to narrow down exactly why they are having such a hard time not repeatedly reintroducing bugs.

    There are a lot of things this could help identify things like:
    - their internal revision control systems are set up incorrectly.
    - developers are bypassing version control in some way, accidentally or as a shortcut.
    - worse, a developer is intentionally, repeatedly, reintroducing changes, because for whatever reason they are obsessed with that particular change. (I only mention this because a couple changes, like reduced welder radius and ugly glass, seem to have popped up to repeated, vehement, universal player opposition. Also, I have seen this behavior IRL in coworkers in the past. It's ugly and hard to deal with.) That's probably the most harmful to KSH in the long run, because it means they lack the internal cohesion to pick a direction for their development and then move on it.



    Regardless, good luck Keen! It's still fun to watch a software team take this brave, fairly unconventional route to continuous rapid iteration with an active user base. I kind of wish they would speak out a bit on how it looks from the inside, just so others in the industry can learn from the experience.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  22. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Two things. One, that you would make this about me and two, when I explain that announcing the intent of every hotfix when it's released is a waste of effort because the hotfix is not likely a permanent solution and also not likely ever intended to be a permanent solution. They either put something in that was supposed to be in the update but didn't make it or they found a way to mask a problem until they have more time to actually fix it. The community is already responsive enough without Keen having to task a staff member with announcing what they did and ask for a response.

    A hotfix comes out. Did it fix the glass? No? Rotors? No? Pistons? No? Did I get windows for small grids? No? Screw it then. If you're game was "not playable" and it's still "not playable" Keen will hear about it.

    Your argument is that Keen should not be inconsistent with the type and frequency of information they provide. You made a point that Keen is (not legally but) obligated to provide the information, and it's in their best interests to do so.

    My counter-argument is that Keen, the only entity here that has any reputation (and real money) at risk has determined that there is some information that is not worth the effort, however slight, to disseminate.

    My intent is not to shut you up. I don't agree with you, I didn't see anyone else responding, so I threw in my five cents (I do that all the time here;)). If there's a discussion to be had should there not be more than one point of view?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,778
    Well I tend to want to know what was changed... I usually test the game every week to see what's fixed and what is not and then report bugs from time to time, knowing what has changed in a hotfix is helpful instead of having to try figuring out if something has been fixed or if anything has been fixed or what has changed.

    I would very much like for Keen to update the changelog with anything that is changed in a hotfix even if it's like one thing.
     
  24. shadoskill Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    7
    29.5MB Patch woo, what does it do?
    (Everyone yells) Well never know!
     
  25. Lé Grand Sárrazin Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    125
    Okay, I'll add in a quick anecdote:

    Let's say I'm a print editor. A print editor that works for Webster's. For their new edition, it's my job to go through and fix any typos from their last edition. Add in new words, take out old ones.

    And, at the end of the day, when I've made all of my changes, my project lead asks which changes I've made, and I say, "Oh, I don't remember, I didn't write them down."

    So, we would have to read the whole damn thing to figure out what was changed..

    Now, imagine, in this scenario I were editing a Russian edition of their dictionary, with only a decent grasp of Cyrillic (which is what coding feels like to me sometimes) it would be easy for me to miss a spelling error.

    Now, how would one feel if I did this again, and again, and again, and again...... until there is this Russian dictionary that hardly a Russian could understand.

    And, in the end, after being shown inept at my job, and shit-canned, my replacement wouldn't know where to begin to fix the mess I started, because I didn't leave notes.

    --


    I feel the same holds true here for us, honestly. Without communication, it's like rediscovering the wheel everyday. A hotfix is someone in a crowd shouting, "I changed something! But, you're gonna have to find out what!"

    We know something has changed.... something. We don't know what, could be anything. We're just supposed to jump in and see what's happened. It's like ink-blot testing.. What does this look like to you? *drip drip* How about Now!?

    It's just redundant, that's all I'm saying. If I know in-hand what was attempted to be fixed, I can go directly there and tell you, yes or no, period. Not, "I'm not sure what they did, but turrets still shoot my ship.."

    I feel like I'm at the optometrist, "And how about now.. A or B.. A or B.. #1 ooooorrrr #2...." Me: "THEY LOOK THE FUCKING SAME!!!!"

    --

    With any luck, we'll see some better communication in the future. We actually had a really good community mods in here on the forum for a while and would answer everyone's concerns quickly, but that was some time ago. Some people say go to the bug forum to bitch about my problems, but I've been less than impressed with, at least publicly, how little interest they show in the bug forum. Most bug reports don't get a response, and when they do, it's usually a we're looking into it, we know, it's only a bug that keeps getting reported for months, that's all. Or re-introduced from the hell-fire from whence they came!! I don't know if I'm optimistic about this, but I'm hopeful, for everyone's sake, that things improve all around. Cheers!!
     
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  26. shadoskill Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    7
    Any reasonable company or better yet person that programs will use some form of versioning system(Git, Hg, Svn, etc....) , each "patch" they commit changes it logs them with a description. So there is a 99% chance that to DO have logs of all changes, just some one cant take 5 minutes to copy paste, take a screen shot, or heck write a simple script to export the change notes.
    If they dont leave commits on the changes, it still shows the differences before and after.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. gordon861 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    131
    Another day, another patch ... and again NO DAMN PATCH NOTES.

    I'm sure you can do better for your beta testers ...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  28. Super_Happy_Alien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    388
    it Clear what was updated,,, some Thing ma jig code for the thing Bobs !!!
     
  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    That might be where we differ. I play the game for hours virtually every day. Sometime last week I passed the 5000 hour mark. I honestly cannot recall a hotfix that made any significant difference to my game experience. The only time I worry about loading the game is Patchmas. Once whatever the update does happens, hotfixes rarely make any difference, at least not for me. I loaded the game today shortly after today's hotfix and as far as I can tell, nothing has changed. It doesn't matter to me what they were attempting to fix. The only thing that matters to me is that the hotfix didn't make anything worse.

    Not everyone ;)

    Problem with this analogy is that we are not print editors or editors of any kind. It's not our job to report errors (if it is then1 Keen owes me some money). We are not the ones Keen relies on for product development. If the game fails it won't be because of us.

    Your point being that any company or individual that does not use one of these systems is not reasonable. That's what's know as a baseless accusation, which means you cannot prove you are right and I cannot prove you are wrong. What is true is that you have no idea if they use one or more of these systems, or something they developed themselves, or not, and if they don't they have made it this far without it. If you have never had the privilege of being in charge of a group of people that know what they're doing and are confident in their abilities, yet will follow your direction, you may not be able to comprehend the possibility that a team can accomplish a great deal without scripting. Sometimes people just work well together.
     
  30. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    523
    It looks like they use git. There's a public git repo, but it's out of sync with their internal repo -- they haven't updated the public repo since January.

    https://github.com/KeenSoftwareHouse/SpaceEngineers
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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