Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Update 1.181.6 Minor - Beta improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by flexx, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Allammo

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    77
    That's why it would be really nice if KSH would fix offset. Some of my previous builds couldn't move at all when height offset started to refuse fallow slider and stuck at low position. I've used maximum offset in most of the cases, so what I did? I've rebuild all fleet moving wheels one block down. It took me couple days to do that, I wasn't complaining about it only because I thought new wheel system is going to be introduce soon. Since it's not it it's really crucial to repair offset setting for ground uniti users.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. I23I7 Tester Developer

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2016
    Messages:
    2,521
    Trophy Points:
    132
    Hello,

    So we are still working on fixing the block placement and selection bug. In other news on our internal version we have the Height Offset option for wheels responding properly and is still being tested. They change their height but you have to wait a little bit. Concerning the modded doors. We apologize for the issue and are also looking into them so that they work properly.

    Lastly the killer door bug (Where hangar and regular doors would kill players on MP) was found and possibly a fix is on the way but currently we are still investigating the cases.

    behavior on our interior branch:



    I23I7 (FYI it means RED in leet)
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. odizzido

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Messages:
    404
    Trophy Points:
    27
    @I23I7 Just wanted to say that you're good with communication(both towards us and the dev team) and I am sure I am not the only one who appreciates your presence on the project.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  4. Arcturus

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    157
    While testing the ship collisions with voxels, using freeze-framing and scripts, I made some observations. It appears that the ships slow down by like 0.1 m/s on each collision, so in general once you hit hard enough to cause damage, it will keep colliding and dealing damage until another criteria is no longer met. In the past the code would apply a force proportional to the amount of destruction to slow the ship, but this appears to be very weak now.

    What appears to be happening currently is that explosion code deletes spherical portions of the voxel and deletes several blocks deep of the colliding part of the ship. Then, the ship continues to move at nearly the same speed into the new crater.

    Note this appears to be a fix for the bug where explosion and collision damage was delayed by several seconds - it now happens near-instantly.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. JuStX2

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2015
    Messages:
    272
    Trophy Points:
    87
    The configuration is difficult for those who don't have time to figure out the physics to begin with. Most Shooters don't even have seperate grids merging let alone wheel options for force, turn radius, and Suspension - that's something you'd expect to find more in a racing game - so from that perspective Space Engineers still does it realistically - but the fact is the implementation is poor - and there are better ways to do it than keen does. When everything under the sun is an option and the defaults don't particularly reflect a realistic scenario you kinda wonder if SE is about Engineering or Mechanics (obv. the major difference being how the thought is applied; Engineering is more prototyping and design work, mechanics is the continuation of a pre-existing state)
     
  6. KissSh0t

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,132
    Trophy Points:
    227
    The fun thing about this game is that you never know what is going to kill you.

    Or explode.

    or both.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. FlakMagnet

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,317
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Chicken and egg .... if they worked OK, then people would use them. I use them on planets if I can. Trouble is. ... that's not often enough.

    The current bug where the wheels just sit at the top of suspension travel and refuse to respond to height changes is annoying, but it doesn't stop you using them. What stops ME using them is the lack of grip. Both when stopped and when rolling. Make a vehicle using wheels attached to rotors and you can go up steep slopes and stop on a hill. Use suspension wheels, and you cannot.

    It is an issue with the code, and should be fixed, but the issue is not 'fizziks' or a limitation with the engine I don't think. It really SHOULD be fixable, and is quite high up on the priority scale for things I want to work well. Planets need massive rolling drill/refinery things, Jawa sand-crawler behemoths and mobile bases. Things that should not be easy to make fly ....

    I wanna see more lurv for the things that put the engineer into space engineers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  8. Allammo

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    77
    I use developer version and there is no response for any change of height offset. No time nor coping/pasting change position of wheels - back in a day this was only way to apply change of it, later removing and adding wheel was helpful (that's why most of my pervious vehicles had piston jack next to each wheel). So it's difficult to build something decent right now...

    Difficult but not impossible. You have to try script pasted in pastebin on the bottom of first page of this thread:

    https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/wip-ackermann-steering-suspension-block-controller.7372331/

    Learn to use it and suddenly wheeled creations start to work, with friction 100. Now, the rest of settings can be adjusted by easy automation script. Create decent code block to adjust wheel power, so if the truck is going less than 5 meters per second wheels give 100 percent of their power, faster you go less power has been given to tge wheels. With this script you can even create sensor that detects hit on the ground, when hit is detected strength rise, when you go stable strength lowers so all wheels have contact with ground. There are many ways to build nice wheeled creations, it's difficult bit it's surely doable and it's not rocket science... Funny thing is that building rockets is easier than building well behaving car. Yea, but it's challenge that makes this so super cool :-D.
     
  9. captainbladej52

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Messages:
    173
    Trophy Points:
    42
    @I23I7 can you get the crew to do a pass over control panel interactions and such? It's gotten extremely difficult in some cases to interact with the control panels on various objects. In fact I can barely get the hangar to open on my second dreadnought I used in a previous testing video. The block placement issue is also still present though not nearly as bad as it was before so there's been some good progress there. When approaching certain panels they simply will not give me the box to show they're selected and that I can interact with them, however some others will work with no problems.
     
  10. Allammo

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    77
    Do you receive message access denied? If not maybe it's because you are not looking straight? It happens sometimes when you use look around button, when you are not looking straight it's almost impossible to hit control pannel or button. To straighten view i simply switch to 3rd person view and than I go back into 1st one.
     
  11. captainbladej52

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Messages:
    173
    Trophy Points:
    42
    I haven't gotten an access denied message, instead it just flat out will not let me use the panel by refusing to give me the selection box at all. I did a test video for them a patch or 2 ago but it's gotten worse since then. Surprisingly enough, when i'm looking straight on is usually when it fails to work the most. I usually have to step to the side of the panel and go to odd camera angles before it will even offer to give me the box.
     
  12. Allammo

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    77
    This is what I'm talking about, have same issue, however going into 3rd and than back to 1st person view makes it right again. If 3rd person isn't allowed probably getting into cockpit/seat straighten up view, if not you can try to do it manually - look down to see your chest equally on both sides than move head up 90 degrees up and it should be straight. Default key is right alt if I remember right. You should really try this out, it helps me... Even with tool, messed head alignment mess welder/grinder/paintgun hit-zone. That's why I keep view switch button close to WSAD.
     
  13. Robinson C.

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,135
    Trophy Points:
    132
    Negative assessment! Not for the worst update version for a long time (for me as a single player during the shipbuilding phase) but because despite many negative messages for days no hotfix is in sight to end the ongoing death of my avatar!!
     
  14. Devon_v

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,492
    Trophy Points:
    177
    I've seen a person flip a vehicle on a straight, flat road using Earth's physics engine. It's not as hard as some people think. :)

    Now THAT'S what I want to see. I have several vehicles which depend on being able to do that to function. :)

    Internal, not development. There actually isn't a dev branch anymore, Steam just may have forgotten to remove the tag if you didn't update your beta participation since then. What we've got now is a current build and a "last major" build, along with DX9.
     
  15. Allammo

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    77
    Oh yea, old habits. Of course I use latest version. Now when KSH knows about wheel offset difference in behavior (or rather lack of any behavior at ours version) and about rising demand on fixing that thing maybe they will do something with our version :-D.
     
  16. Stardriver907

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Messages:
    1,940
    Trophy Points:
    207
    I won't argue with this. I think my problem is that once a ship gets to a certain weight, any touch constitutes "hard enough" and the cycle begins. It does appear, however, that if the first thing that touches is a landing gear or something with a separate grid like a piston head you might survive the landing.

    Outside of this recent glitch, they DO work OK. "OK" <> "works automatically when placed". I'll give you an example:

    I watched a guy on Twitch building a rover. I had tuned in after he had nearly completed it. He was having a devil of a time getting the damn thing to move. He tried everything; changed every setting this way and that. No luck. This guy was cussing the wheels, cussing the game, cussing Keen, Microsoft, corporations, guvernment, just generally going ballistic. He had turned his view to a point where I could see his build. I typed in chat, "Dude, your wheels are upside down."

    When he calmed down enough to read chat he was like, "They can be upside down? What difference does it make?" I assured him it made a difference, so he turned them around and his rover worked with default settings. Not quite to his satisfaction, but he understood that changing the settings now would probably actually help. Needless to say his impression of the game changed dramatically.

    When it comes to wheel suspension I have done this many times. People cuss wheels because they don't work when placed like thrusters do, they they tell their friends wheels are broken, and their friends spread that to the point that there is an assumption about the game that wheels are broken. They are glitchy, but they're not broken.

    That's because Earth's physics engine is not "realistic" I guess ;)

    Maybe he should have welded a gyro to his car.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. captainbladej52

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Messages:
    173
    Trophy Points:
    42
    I've since then tried this trick and sadly it did not work for me. The best I got was a flicker and it was available for a brief second before refusing to let me select the panel again.
     
  18. FlakMagnet

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,317
    Trophy Points:
    157
    The problem is... I know how to set the wheels up so they work ( aside from the current bug that broke wheel height settings.... ) but they are still fundamentally broken in 2 VERY important ways.

    1) Grip.
    Make a simple rover with 'normal' wheels and try and drive up a slope on earthlike planet. This is a good baseline for gravity. You will find that you are seriously limited in the amount of slope it will actually go up. Then try and drive sideways across the same slope. Assess how much you slide down. Now make a similar simple rover using rotors and the basic wheels. It will go up a much steeper slope and suffer much less side-hilling too.

    2) Parking
    Stop your rover on a gentle slope....apply the handbrake....and get out. See how steep the slope needs to be before your rover just slides/rolls away. Then repeat the test with the rotor rover. As long as the rotors are on and powered, the thing just stops and stays where it is. Turn off the power, and you get a free rolling object....so don;t power it off.

    What this demonstrates is why I cannot use wheels in the way I think they ought to be used. You end up with a vehicle that is very limited in scope for travel, and one which cannot be used as a rolling drill platform as you need to make legs to lift it clear of the ground when you stop. Legs which are prone to 'stick' in the ground on reload and tear the heads off. If they fixed those two issues, it would mean wheeled vehicles could actually be used to get around on terrain that they realistically ought to be able to manage. I don;t mean climb sheer ciffs..or cross rocky terrain....but just be usable on ground that would not challenge any current real world AWD vehicle. And be able to stop and get out!

    The ret is down to settings, building skill and good design....which is entirely the responsibility of the builder. I agree a lot of rubbish gets talked about why wheels are broken, and it's not helped by people failing to set them up right...but the level of adhesion is very wrong
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  19. Forcedminer

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,351
    Trophy Points:
    72

    my gripe is that they worked perfectly before the fancy block update that turned most of the workshop pink. :p
    and nothing bar a teaser back in april has showed use wheels working in a useful manner.
    right fair enough thanks to these recent updates
    -placing large wheels no longer kill a player when they spawn. [that one ruined many an attempt at playing survival]
    -and the height offset has been fixed. [although i never did have an issue with height offset effecting myself and my creations all that much]

    but really wheels are just plain difficult to use since then...you always need a gyroscope locked in override if you wish to drive in a straight line
    otherwise the thing jerks around uncontrollably when attempting to drive normally.
    even making a simple crappy 4x4 small battery powered rover is impossible to drive as the thing needs major wheel tweaking otherwise it'll spin out uncontrollably when attempting to drive off. with it only being in control moving at extremely slow speeds.

    hand breaking also got effectively useless i mean it slows you down far too slowly by the time you put the handbreak on to stop....you've already crashed into the tree or rock and died horribly.
    so then you attach some thrusters as aids....but hell you might as well build a hovercraft or flying ship at that stage.