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Update 1.188.1 – Minor Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Nov 19, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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  2. [XGN] XLency Trainee Engineer

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    I agree DECENT progress has been made, but my point is all of that progress has come at the expense of things that should have been fixed since they were first discovered. Bad piston physics, rotors, optimization, mod support, and overall gameplay in particular. Not to mention the most recent things such as the missile targeting and multiplayer hosting. I'm not the only one who's had these problems, as I've looked on forums almost everywhere and found people having the exact same issues with no solutions being addressed. Then someone from Keen or related to Keen comes in and says something completely useless and then just leaves with no response to questions. I had to figure out all of the multiplayer stuff myself. So my overall point being, Keen should not be in charge of this game. They haven't even finished the game over the span of the YEARS it's been out, which is why it's still in early access. This game needs to fall under a company that actually knows what they're doing and actually addresses concerns by the community.
     
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  3. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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  4. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    Do you expect me to answer to the demand that this game be taken away from their creators and to someone else? On the grounds that the individual asking is personally unhappy with the development over the course of years? Because it has been a course over several years which actually is the absolutely normal way for a game that complex let alone made by a company that small? Even though it has been playable from the very beginning and has accumulated thousands and thousands of workshop items and tens of thousands of playtime? All that because Keen lacks in the PR department and cannot answer to that guy or the thousands of others individually?

    Do you expect that from me?

    For your amusement?

    You're damn right to expect that! Here it comes:

    Good sir, I feel some inconsistency in your reply. On the one hand you agree that there has been progress. Apparently enough so in order to not only keep you occupied with the game but also emotionally involved. On the other hand you demand that the people who are depending with their livelihood upon this game and have given you all that involvement so far be taken off of this project - no matter their opinion - because you, a customer who does not pay them or own them or is their colleague demands since you have problems with their decisions. Others would call this entitled. But I think you are just a bit too involved and need to distance yourself emotionally, maybe talk a stroll or have a decent laugh with friends. I've played this game alot - too much, apparently, if I look up my numbers. But I never got myself so much involved as to the point where I wanted to dictate to strangers what to do with their property (maybe apart from that one time on the server when the faction... but I digress).

    My point is: It's their game. You cannot change that. You should not change that. Look where it takes you. If you don't like it, move on. Don't attack people that don't get as upset as you. Human rights are a far more suited area for this.
     
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  5. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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  6. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    You have GOT to be kidding.

    You have either not been paying attention, or you simply wanted to get a rise out of the developers. If you look through the change log you will notice that there has not been a post like yours in quite some time. Most of the reasonable people have come to the conclusion, like it or not, that if SE is going to be a decent game it will take time. Perhaps you are not aware that Keen tried the "let's get the game out fast because that's the mark of a good game developer" approach and the results of that mentality speak for themselves. That is why the "speed it up" cries fall on deaf ears.

    The long-term problems stem from the fact that Keen wrote the engine (VRAGE) and they are all still figuring out what its capabilities are. Just "handing the game over to someone else" will not solve anything because "someone else" will have to make the game without VRAGE, and VRAGE is not the problem. HAVOK is. So, the "new guy" will probably take longer to get similar results, let alone better ones. Sure you can come up with a long list of games that took less time to develop, and not one of them is like Space Engineers, which is why they were developed so quickly. I don't suppose you noticed that in all this time no one else has come up with a similar game that is better in every way, even though they have apparently "had the time." Besides, what the hell is your hurry? You got someplace to go so you need the game finished now so you can, what, play it?

    You are so out-of-touch that you are not even aware that no one posts stuff like yours in the change log any more. Even the most expert trolls know Keen just doesn't respond here. Keen has endured posts like yours since 2014 and they're still standing and still perfecting their game at their own pace and not planning to release it until they are ready. I don't know what made you think your approach would be different, but as it stands now we can't even give you points for trying because you're using rhetoric that was shot down years ago. Looking for a bunch of people to agree with you and join your cause? Good luck with that. All the people that believe Keen screwed the pooch are already gone and are definitely NOT reading the change log any more. Change Log is Fanboy territory now. You will encounter far more people defending Keen and the game here than knocking them/it.

    You don't have to stop if you don't want to. Heck, it's been so long since I've had a chance to respond to a post like yours that I've almost forgotten how much fun it is grinding down poorly-built arguments and putting the parts in a assembler and hitting the "disassemble" button so that we can all marvel at the pure bullshit they're made out of.

    If you'd rather be constructive in your criticism, you will have my full support.
     
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  7. [XGN] XLency Trainee Engineer

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    Exactly, it is their game. Regardless of who's game this is, I'm STILL waiting for fixes. And I have to point out AGAIN that I'm NOT THE ONLY ONE having these fucking issues. You can ask literally 75% of the community on Steam for their opinions, and they'll all say the exact same shit I'm saying. I fail to see how I'm contradicting myself. The point I'm making is progress is being made, but also at the expense of major game-breaking functions and features. I'd also like to point out that there hasn't been a SINGLE UPDATE in 2019 so far. The company IS small, and that's why I want to see another company, a BIGGER company, take this over or at least help out with some of the stuff. Another point I've made and I'll make again, is that regardless of what company owns the game, they should fix or at least address the bugs within the first few weeks that it pops up. I've seen none of that from Keen. Playability is one thing, but laziness is another.
     
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  8. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    Good lord, you're a tough cookie. So, what are Keen now in your opinion? Too small to fix or too lazy to fix your problems?

    I agree, software development is not a simple thing to understand and hence your frustration might be huge. Let me try to make it as simple as possible:

    Space Engineers is a complex program with millions of lines of code.
    This code interacts - if you change something at one point it might break something at another and that can create a chain reaction that could cripple the game - we call these blocker bugs or game-breakers
    Hence, if a problem is found the cause for it might not be directly visible - is the code for the anti-missile-function itself broken? No? Is it the missile definition? No? is it the turret?
    This takes time to figure out - and then there is the problem of chain reactions again: if I fix it, I might break something else! Gotta find that!

    This is why KSH has decided to go from weekly updates that might break more than they might fix to better, high quality and large updates. The game is simply too complex now to rush out things. It makes sense to collect fixes and make sure they don't break each other so you create a stable version.

    The fun part is: It really does not matter if you, 75% of steam, my grandmother and their neighbours or even St. Patrick himself think that Keen should do it differently. It's their work and they will do it however the heck they want. Because it's really not up to you to decide how other people work at their jobs unless you happen to be their manager - and friend, if you are their manager you're pretty bad at handing out your weekly instructions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  9. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Not really. Did you know there is a bug with Microsoft Windows that has been around since Windows 95 that Microsoft is aware of but it still exists though all versions of Windows since Win 95?
    I know it isn't SE related, but just going with your theory of bugs being fixed in the first 2 weeks.
     
  10. [XGN] XLency Trainee Engineer

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    Microsoft is just a bunch of corporate fucks. More importantly, they have nothing to do with the gaming industry, unless you count Minecraft and Windows games.
     
  11. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Potty-mouth.
     
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  12. [XGN] XLency Trainee Engineer

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    They're both of those things. Too small and too lazy, and perhaps more. I get what you're saying about the quality of updates rather than quantity, but I haven't seen anything REPLACING those weekly updates. That leads to the lack of communication I talk about. Another thing I wanted to point out is that the anti-missile targeting worked FINE before, so how they manage to break something completely that worked 100% fine before honestly astonishes me. I'm no coder, so there's probably SOME reason behind it. Logically speaking however, I can't even remotely figure out how something they've done recently can break something that's been working fine for so long. It's hard to see how adjusting air tightness or something else can break anti-missile targeting. I am, however, a consumer, meaning I have standards. Hell, even MICROSOFT does a better job of making games than Keen does, regardless of how big or small their company is. A prime example is Minecraft. That game had huge potential and actually harnessed it. Not just because the game was fun and playable, but because the people working on it were actually communicating and reliable. I can say neither of those things about Keen. I agree Minecraft probably has a lot less coding going on than Space Engineers, but the point I'm making is that I've NEVER seen in ANY game I've played, a perfectly working key-function of the game broken 100% by adding or modifying a new feature that's almost completely unrelated to said function. The same can be said about the multiplayer update Keen had around the end of last year. The multiplayer system worked fine before, but they had to go ahead and fuck that over as well, which is why I stopped playing the game around then. I've barely touched it since because of how unreliable and downright annoying the developing has become. This isn't even the tip of the iceberg, because I know a TON of people who quit, refunded, or uninstalled Space Engineers because of the optimization, hardware problems, compatability, or just overall dull gameplay.
     
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  13. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    @[XGN] XLency if you are that pissed off with the game, just stop playing it. Pretty simple solution.
    You must have been living under a rock, because Microsoft has acquired several major gaming studios.
    Although as I had stated originally I was using them as an example and stated it was not SE related.
    At this point I am going to stop feeding the Troll.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  14. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Listen, and understand. That @[XGN] XLency is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
     
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  15. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    It will stop when we stop feeding it. :woot:
     
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  16. Dan2D3D Moderator

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    Hi Guys!

    I received reports about this discussion.

    My advice = All can share their opinion and if you don't like it = "Simply ignore the offensive post or review"
     
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  17. Silvrav Trainee Engineer

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    Money and time can resolve all the problems in the world....however once money and time expenses outweigh that of the income its a stupid business decision. ;)
     
  18. [XGN] XLency Trainee Engineer

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    None of us have been living under a rock. You're right, Microsoft bought Mojang studios. But even after they did, they're STILL doing a better job than Keen is in my opinion. As for quitting the game, you're about half a year too late.
     
  19. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Anyway back on topic, anyone think it would be worth bringing back the F5 squadron tomorrow in case 1.189 goes live? :)
     
  20. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    When 1.189 goes live, statistically speaking, given the history of updates and playability after updates.... What are the chances you will be ABLE to bring back the F5 squadron on the new build?
     
  21. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Never hurts to try @NoThanks ! But I see we have another public test, so maybe that will encourage the old F5 squadron to reunite! :D
     
  22. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    Congratulations, you've found the key ingredient to Early Access: patience. Use it.

    75%? Really? Why not 76%? At least make a good argument and shoot for 100%. Did you ask all 25% or get tired at 24%? Have you had Statistics in school?

    So this is a legit objective observation. In software, when functionality is added but breaks something else and it is released to the public, this is a symptom of a lack of Configuration Management, a thorough Software Test Plan, and inadequate or no coverage in automated testing (both unit and integration). This often happens to young software shops or shops who don't pay attention to industry best practices. This can be resolved but it takes a lot of discipline and a lot more time.

    Other than the fact it's only been a month and a half....

    This is likely because they are maturing as a software shop and have found the value in defect tracking (Keen Support site - in addition to their own internal defect management tool : because now they can correlate community reported defects to internally identified defects and track both - this gives them the ability to really know what is broke and which ones they want to fix) and longer development iterations giving the team the time to focus on quality.

    If this actually happened it would very nearly be a disaster. Chris Roberts allowed his startup team to be acquired by Microsoft and it almost killed Freelancer. They kept some of the brains during the acquisition but it was him that made it succeed because of his ambition and commitment. A total replacement would result in the existing software being dropped in the trash because the new company would fail at trying to gain all the corporate knowledge about the code. It would take at least two years before you'd see the first tiny patch after Keen walks and it would probably break everything. SE would get cancelled.

    Wow. You really don't know anything about software development.
     
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  23. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    You just say that because it's true!
     
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  24. [XGN] XLency Trainee Engineer

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    • Inappropriate Language
    Alright then, since I know realize I've made my cases to a bunch of fucking morons, I'll simply say this. Go play with your broken game and maybe stop fucking with the rest of the community that actually wants some real shit. Thank you very much.
     
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  25. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]
     
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  26. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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  27. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    I know, I know. I keep pointing out the obvious. I really should stop. .... Maybe one day. :D
     
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  28. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    @boromir don't feed the troll anymore, that is what he was wanting.

    So on to better things!

    Who is hyped for the test today?!?! :)
     
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  29. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    :carlton:
     
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  30. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Hopefully Alfonso Ribeiro never sees :carlton: he may sue!! Heard he is one of many trying to sue Fortnight for "stealing" his moves.
     
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