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Upgrade module discussion

Discussion in 'General' started by AutoMcD, May 7, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    some people asked for upgrades, some sort of game progression, advanced machinery, something more to do in survival. But of course, there will be complains as always. Devs can make everybody happy.
    I also don't see the need of this upgrades, more than have compact and smaller ship/base. But anyways the little time I have played survival mode, I never needed more than 1 or 2 refineries. And to make if feel like you are advancing in your game, I think it needs to be a little bit more complex to make this upgrades, or maybe more hard to build (more resources), no idea how can it be implemented in SE. in MC with mods, it was way too ridiculous stupidly uber nerdy overcomplicated so I quit after playing for less than 1 hour :D
    Also, because Im more creative player than survival right now, this modules are good to add details to your ships exterior or interior works very well
     
  2. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    optimal for what exactly? I think this depends on your goals.
     
  3. Dr. Novikov Apprentice Engineer

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    263
    Not anymore. It is viable, well, maybe in the very beginning of the game. Then, when you have a big station, there is absolutely no reason to lose the benefits of 2X more ingots. 2X more ingots = 2X less time spent searching, mining, hauling and risking getting shot or stlakered. 2X more ingots = 2X more components, 2X more ships or much better ships. 2X ingots = getting the same amounts of them as before 2X faster.
     
  4. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    Eh. Even in early game, iron is one of those things you seem to have an infinite supply of. Usually I get stuck waiting for refinement and assemblers to slog through it all.
     
  5. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    I was saying to speed up the refining of platinum not the efficiency!!!!
     
  6. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    545
    On the face of it, that seems to be optimal. I already did the numbers above: You get 423% effective productivity, so it's producing ingots almost as fast as 4x productivity, but at only 2/3 the energy and resource cost.

    Thanks for doing the numbers! So by the looks of it, the production modules are consistently about 2,5 to 2 seconds too slow. If that is no error on your part, that means they actually have somewhat diminishing returns. By your numbers, the percentage rates are:
    1 module: 177,3% (77,3 per module)
    2 modules: 260,0% (80,0 per module)
    3 modules: 325,0% (75,0 per module)
    4 modules: 410,5% (77,5 per module)

    also does anyone knows why energy efficiency is displayed instead of simply the consumption?
     
  7. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    somebody put this on the wiki (?)
     
  8. Jas Apprentice Engineer

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    443
    wait wait .. i didnt palyed the game for some week .... so are you sayng upgrade modules work only whit assembler and refinery and not with the arc furnace? really? wtf!?
     
  9. Sensei Trainee Engineer

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    57
    I think it's worth saying that, even though they're not balanced right now, that kind of stuff is easily changed. The fact that they're in and functional (blocks that affect other blocks' behavior just by attaching to them) is really neat. As others have said, I can't wait to see this applied to other things.
     
  10. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,722
    I hope there will be upgrade modules for other ship parts... Like thrusters.. or radio, or beacon.. or other things.. more things.... things..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Oselotti Junior Engineer

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    837
    I like this blocks and thruster parts sounds good. One could be energy saver and other to give more thrust but also using more energy.
     
  12. Tooshar Trainee Engineer

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    3
    One thing I've noticed though, is an assembler with 4 productivity modules literally CANNOT pull materials fast enough to keep it going, so it sort of blinks, ie you get the assembler doing a tiny batch of plates, it stops for a second, pulls some more iron, then does another batch, so this may take some testing but, 2-3 may be more optimal, be alot easier to fit into stacks that way as well.
     
  13. Infekted Apprentice Engineer

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    359
    No they don't work on Ark Furnaces, yet. And I think yet is the important word there or they might as well remove furnaces from the game.

    And as for putting it on the wiki. I will be massively surprised if they stay in their current implementation, then any changes will need to be updated there too, or you end up with the classic out of date wiki that's more confusion than it's worth.
     
  14. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    I did the time by hitting stopwatch app on my phone at the same time i dropped the ore in, there is certainly room for error. Even just the time between dropping the ore and the refinery kicking on could cause decent amount of error, if these numbers are not adding up then we should perhaps run another test with a larger amount of ore. When the sample time w/ 4 modules fell below 10 seconds i had considered this.. but the data i have satisfied my curiosity enough to make decisions. For the wiki we should use larger ore sample size for better % numbers.
     
  15. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    I like to think of ark furnaces as refineries specifically designed for the common metals, on thier own they are faster- use less power and take up less volume than the refineries, also they cost less, making them MUCH more practical for iron- nickle and cobalt (but mostly iron) refining than you can get with modules on refineries- they take up 1/8th the space than a non-upgraded refinery, use 40% less power, and are 1.2x faster, and seeing as you can fit 8 of them in the space of one refinery- (with just the space of a refinery by itsself) is 9.6x faster if you fill the space with just them and would use 2.64MW (less power than a refinery if maxed on production mods which would make it 5x faster) so if you are just refining those three ores Arc Furnaces are still much more effective than any configuration of refinery modules, With the same Ore-ingot ratio as a standard refinery.

    Edit- In conclusion Arc Furnaces are significantly better for your common ores than any refinery configuration. no need to upgrade them, as for those ores they ARE the best.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Noy Apprentice Engineer

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    112
    True; for the most part arch furnaces don't need upgrades but, It might be nice to have a slot or two for effectiveness upgrades.
     
  17. Lithorn Trainee Engineer

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    Answer me this. In a 10x server, what do these upgrades do? Will Productivity even do anything? I feel like there is a cap on speed for refinerys. Mods that say they do 4x refinerys seem to do the same speed as a 10x anyway.

    I get the power consumption and output upgrades. I like playing on servers with at or near 1x capacity, and assembler, but I dislike slow refining. Usually keep it on 10x to speed things up.
     
  18. ghosttr Trainee Engineer

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    58
    I hope they open these up for modding.

    My only issue with them is that they are too good. It shouldn't be possible to get more ingots than there is ore itself, efficiency needs to be capped at some point.

    I also agree that there should be drawbacks. More efficient should mean slower and uses more power, Faster should use more power and be less efficient, Using less power should mean slower and less efficient.
     
  19. WardenWolf Junior Engineer

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    556
    Oh well. At least my mothership can easily be refitted with them, although it has 20 refineries and 36 arc furnaces so it really isn't needed. It does block the windows in the factory, though.

    I honestly just don't like them, though. They're immersion-breaking and a poor substitute for properly balancing refinery performance. Implementing cooperative refining would have been a much better choice.
     
  20. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    Actually they aren't that emersion breaking (except for the effectiveness mod if you put more than 1 on) because different hardware has different efficiency ratings, giving everyone the exact same refinery is extremely gamey
     
  21. Nik0 Apprentice Engineer

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    103
    I would like to add my voice to the "I'm just glad this capability is in the game now" camp.

    Seriously, balance can come later (would it actually be correct to say it's alpha in this instance?...). I would like, over the coming Thursdays, to see more applications of these modules for thrusters and antennae and so on. I don't really mind if the modules are universal or block-specific but I do see the need to cut them in half so they can be more easily placed on the smaller blocks.

    Anyway, to sum up: good job Keen!
     
  22. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    20+ refineries is well into the territory of: you have everything you need and these modules won't make any difference to you.

    Early game ships that have 1-4 refineries, it makes all of the difference.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. PolarWolf Apprentice Engineer

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    126
    Perhaps the modules would be standard on a full refinery if the refinery was built in an actual manufacturing plant instead of stranded in the middle of space.

    <SmallAncedote>
    Think of it as being stranded on an island where your only hope for survival is to scrap together a boat with whatever you can find. Your solution probably wouldn't look or function the greatest, and you could probably do a better job with the proper equipment (the word "crude" comes to mind).
    </SmallAncedote>

    In my opinion, the refineries erected in survival mode are out of necessity as they get the job done, but not as well as it can be done. These efficiency modules are essentially additional components help to complete the refinery as a whole to bring it up to optimal efficiency.

    With that being said, I would like to propose making the refinery less efficient. Namely a large drop in power efficiency, and a mild drop in productivity efficiency. The modules could complete the refinery process, and boost the efficiency to about 75% the current full-modules refining process.
    Just a thought...
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
  24. Noy Apprentice Engineer

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    112

    FYI: 20+ refineries is not enough by them selves to keep up with any drill array, I had to reach 50+ range along side 40+ arch furnaces just to keep up with my small ship 3x3 drill. imagine how bad it gets with proper large ship drill arrays. Your looking at 200+ at that point without upgrades. Currently upgrades are needed to help reduce the weight, size, and cost of a proper refining facility. Especially if you want to make it mobile, to reduce freight trips.
     
  25. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    I don't think processing ore at the rate you can drill it at will EVER be a realistic expectation.. or even a reasonable goal!

    Fill the cargo then do something else. explore or go to bed.
     
  26. Noy Apprentice Engineer

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    112
    That wasn't the point. When you get into large ship construction you start using very vast amounts of materials, and unless you want to spend the next WEEK or so, gathering/processing all the ore just to build ONE large ship; you often find your self making large ship drills with many heads, that can easily outshine my 3x3 small ship drill. It takes 20ish refineries many hours to process the ores you gather in a single pass with drills of that size. IF, you are playing on DS, it's possible to have the refineries work while you're offline but, it's still a slow process.

    Also, increasing a refinery's productivity as opposed to making another refinery, allows you to reduce performance issues that are currently still around.
     
  27. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    yes. large ships are a big deal!
     
  28. extraammo Senior Engineer

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    1,015
    So I don't see why there needs to be a trade off between upgrading refineries vs building more. The optimal situation is both. You upgrade the ones you have and then build more and upgrade those. The only balance needs to be between the modules themselves.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    545
    Well, no two blocks that have the same function need to be balanced. But it's a wasted opportunity for more depth in the game. Notably, modules could be an option that allows customization of a refinery, rather than an obvious choice. In addition to the various combinations of modules, there could be the option to have no modules, or only some modules, instead of always 4. If all you achieve with the modules is that everyone is essentially using the same combination of 4 modules, on the grounds that this combination is easily the best choice for 90% of applications, then in effect what you have done is no different from changing the efficiency and productivity modifiers in the world options. Not a good use of 3 extra blocks.

    Obviously the modules system in and of itself is a good idea. But it should be balanced further.
     
  30. Detoxifier Trainee Engineer

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    74
    I have already modified my existing production ships to use the effectiveness modules for the refineries, and the productivity modules for the assemblers.

    I have yet to actually refine anything since I have enormous quantities refined materials sitting around from the previous weeks of a friend coring out huge asteroids. Having double the ingots from the same amount of ore is an exciting prospect, especially for Uranium, Gold, Platinum, Silicon.
     
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