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Warning To Develeoper And The Future Of Multiplayer!

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by Bopkasen, Apr 5, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Bopkasen

    Bopkasen Apprentice Engineer

    It is always the same people that called other people carebear that are like bully called people weakling.

    Griefers and bullies don't like rules and server administration control because they can and want to break while playing criminal in game. While they called people carebear, they don't like game police, admin, or NPC security making community goes as what real life are meant to be. What every bad person that you met will do is bypass, exploit, and dance around the line of sight to not get caught and get reward. When victims complains, nerf happens. When there is no balance, it maybe because of the system glitch and break down bringing viritual chaos into the game or go extreme and punish not only the bad person but someone who trying to defend themselves. Criminal, proven, to fear self-defense, because every gank situation have to be preemptitive leaving victims no reaction time to defend themselves. Understanding is that taking away gun doesn't prevent murder while punishing people for defending themselves from premptitiveness is "a salt to injuries", however you put that in words. In Space Engineer, don't play the game, it just a game is the cheap response from someone who already made their mind.

    There is no point in argueing and reasoning. They call you carebear, pull every virgin get laid stories, your mom, your dad, etc. Heck, does it even save you time to argue with some drug addict about their drug addiction and habit?

    When punishing griefers, they will throw ammunitions in the book. If you pull ban hammer on them, most will leave the server for good but some will be coward and use DDoS (developers should take away visable IP but silently ban IP at a mouse click). If you going to public and dedicated host, you might as well get a IP forward service and put a DDoS control setting with it. Most gaming dedicated host boasts DDoS protection but they don't know what they are talking about. Even if they did, they thinks that it just a "small computer".

    Speaking of DDoS, there were and always have been a growing epidemic of kiddies hackers hacking games ruining past game, likes WarRock, Combat Arms, and Wolf Team. In 7 Days To Die, new hack is currently release that allows the person auto-changing name and globally kill players while banning can be pointless because names are being change throughout the time. In Rust, it seems that every "good player" knows how to tweak their setting unofficially, turning off recoil and spread, then pull out a rifle and shoot at someone's head over 120m making Vietnam sniper heroes put to shame in real life. The newly released Rust supported program, Cheatpunch, helps and banned lot of players but doesn't deter recoil and spread hackers because it is undetectable. You would needs a program to sniff something that even you can't program to sniff for. Even if it sniff it, it's only going to smell good as extraordinary sniper that can take a sniper rifle and shoot every bottle in the air while taking a sip of their drink.

    In closing...

    You have to get a coffee grinder and make the coffee yourself before you can wake up and smell the coffee because you aren't going to get this message!
  2. Fab

    Fab Apprentice Engineer

    *passworded servers

    *trust system (I suggested but devs ignored it) [for creative]

    *ban function
  3. Jikanta

    Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

    Bopkasen - I've seen many posts talking about or to Keen as if they knew nothing about what's going on outside their own software. First off, I doubt Keen is hardly new to all this. They most likely played all the games that we have growing up. Experienced the same things from hacks/cheats. Maybe even used some. All speculation of course. But very likely. You want security before the door has been built. I see that. But first you need the rest of the house.

    Fab - *trust system* You mean Friends Only?
  4. JamesL86

    JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    Unfortunately you will always have douches that think winning is everything and will stop at nothing to achieve it. Every game that has ever had MP will have these people in the servers. There are plenty of tools out there to stem the tide of hackers and griefers but you can never get them all. Fortunately SE is on Steam. Now Steam does have its problems don't get me wrong but it is also one of the strongest supporters of anti-cheating software integration. I think in the long run things should be alright but you have to remember that its not always up to the devs to fix all the gameplay issues. I would not be surprised to see modders coming out with their own supplemental server software once dedicated servers are released.
  5. vasvadum

    vasvadum Apprentice Engineer

    This was a fairly pointless post. Every game designer knows that there are griefers out there.
  6. TodesRitter

    TodesRitter Moderator

    The devs cant reply every suggestion..
  7. iron_dinges

    iron_dinges Apprentice Engineer

    1. Make friends
    2. Play with those friends

    Anti-griefing tools is not development priority at the moment. I think most of us would rather first see conveyors, rails, weapons, factions, etc.
  8. Fab

    Fab Apprentice Engineer

    Please, read this: https://forums.keenswh.com/post/trust-system-for-multiplayer-player-list-antigrief-code-only-6719224?highlight=trust&pid=1281195123#post1281195123
  9. xwhitemousex

    xwhitemousex Apprentice Engineer

    This is the result of wanting PvP in the games. People inevitably want to be 'best', and some then resort to hacking or cheat.

    There has not been a single pvp game in the entire history of computer gaming that has not had cheating in some form or another.

    And for a game like Space Engineers where you spend, literally, hours to build something and then have it blown to bits by some douche using cheats... sorry, not going to allow that to happen.

    Ban lists (white / black lists) is an absolute must for any game that has an online multiplayer side to it.
  10. Bopkasen

    Bopkasen Apprentice Engineer

    You can't built a *complete house without knowing where to put the security. You want to tack the security on the wall, be my guest but that doesn't going to make a perfect security. You nudge it, you break the entire house. All the indies game's programming codes are so fragile.

    This is where 3rd party devs come in to the picture as I am explaining to iron_dinges.

    Anti-grief tools isn't a priority. Understood. This is why Minecraft never made it their priority either, and they are no longer Alpha. The 3rd party mod devs did. This saves Mojang ton of money and simply look away without throwing the legal book at them. Free outsourcing/3rd party support is a win-win as much as everyone can agree!

    Tells that to the Nexon devs. They are all about deving and get the heck out of there and smoke/party! Most of Nexon games are infested beyound repair. They either knew and don't care, not dedicated to mind, or just clueless/skulless like the dev who made Zombie Survivor on Steam after covertly changing the name because the bad publicity took away their potential profit, the same dev who made the crappy Truck Simulator PC game in the past.


    Personally, they should removes all video picturing ship ramming each other. It only going to promote griefing more than sandboxing. Does it ever make more sense for pottery college class to teach people how to ruins and smash vases? Come on! Even if you want PvP, you won't get much of a PvP with sticks and stones because everyone smash things.

    There is a more productive pictures to show what Space Engineers hold and inspires social viral to expand its Space Engineers community through words of mouth, Facebooking, YouTubing, streaming, blogging, and etc. If grief is the most discussion heard than positive information, you aren't getting social viralness for your developement.
  11. piddlefoot

    piddlefoot Senior Engineer

  12. Bopkasen

    Bopkasen Apprentice Engineer

    lol nice
  13. mattaperry

    mattaperry Trainee Engineer

    I would love to see a ban function, them rammers do get annoying when they keep coming back
  14. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Remove the spawn ship and the rammers wont have anything to ram with. Replace it with a ship with just a cockpit.

    My respawnship.sbc file is this:
    <?xml version="1.0"?>
    <MyObjectBuilder_CubeGrid xmlns:xsi="https://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="https://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">
      <PersistentFlags>CastShadows InScene</PersistentFlags>
        <Position x="0.301758" y="8.706062" z="0.2307" />
        <Forward x="0.9539169" y="0.143251732" z="-0.2636694" />
        <Up x="-0.172980711" y="0.9805149" z="-0.0931043848" />
        <MyObjectBuilder_CubeBlock xsi:type="MyObjectBuilder_Cockpit">
          <Min x="-6" y="2" z="0" />
          <BlockOrientation Forward="Left" Up="Up" />
          <ColorMaskHSV x="0.122222222" y="-0.1" z="0.26" />
      <LinearVelocity x="20" y="0" z="0" />
      <AngularVelocity x="0" y="0" z="0" />
      <XMirroxPlane xsi:nil="true" />
      <YMirroxPlane xsi:nil="true" />
      <ZMirroxPlane xsi:nil="true" />
    Make a backup so you can restore it if needed.
  15. Churpy

    Churpy Trainee Engineer

    I literally do not understand this post, at all. What is going on?
  16. JoshQuake

    JoshQuake Trainee Engineer

    I have no clue what the hell was just posted.
  17. Restoon

    Restoon Trainee Engineer

    I'm gamedesigner since 2008. It's my occupation, boss pay me money for this job. And i know, that earlier you solve the problem (ideally before it appears) - less money and time you spend for development.

    To remove problem with pvp-players, called griefers, just give them place for ONLY fight and destroy and builders can build in friends-only worlds, than go fight (or mine more ore) in dedicated public pvp-worlds. Griefer problem is very slight in games with good and structured, usable pvp-mechanics. Most of griefers just want normal bang-bang-EXPLODE things, which is not present in SE.

    And i know, that griefers is a problem, as far, as they ruins someone game (even kids under 10 can play Minecraft and SE, you know?). But. They are real problem for devs, if it is F2P project. In pay-to-play projects strategically more valuable is people, who not buy game yet. So devs up beauty vids with huge blowing ships, people pay, and then can even not start playing. This is retail model. After sale game might burn in hell - devs have no more profit from sold copies.

    So... i love idea of SE, but i'd prefer, if here was some in-app purchases, so i can be sure game is supported and balanced.
  18. Teravisor

    Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    Let me say it better:
    There are people hate things they can't protect themselves from. (See how much whine there is about griefers or how broken meteors are)
    And there are others.
    And humanity consists of them equally.

    So if dev wants to get positive replies there needs to be protection from everything. At least theoretical. But is that possible?
    Oh, and even more people hate it when their ship gets destroyed when they can't do anything about it (offline on server for example), I mean more than half players.
  19. TheDrgnRbrn

    TheDrgnRbrn Trainee Engineer

    Because this game is... Free to Play? What? THIS was a completely pointless post.

    So... There will be people who take pleasure from the pain of others. Welcome to The Internet. The OP didn't need to make this statement. Every single person who has ever played a game online knows that The Internet is full of such people, and by playing games online you will, at some point, be exposed to this. So, the OP restates the obvious, then says the devs need to take all these precautions. Sure. that is great. Cept, well... We don't have any server tools yet? No dedicated server? Nothing has even been said about this yet? So why god whyyyy did you feel compelled to put on your sandwich-board and stand on the corner screaming 'The End is NIGH!'

    TL;DR is OP opened his world to public and got something busted, moving on.
  20. Restoon

    Restoon Trainee Engineer

    Practically, if I has task to research griefers problem in SE, I started from MP itself. When player want some, and he physically CAN do this in game - he WILL do this. So in my opinion - there must be place for ONLY building and coop, and place for pvp (with possibility to mining/building, but mainly for fighting). It must be clear and easy for access, so players can use it massed.

    At first look, let people build ships in survival, then move on them to pvp-server (team from one world must be moved as team). Use only capital ships for this, but with all connected to it small ships, so teams will rule. Damaged ships will moved back home by portal or in reaching some goal in fight round. This is hardcore and realistic way. Build in safe, fight in cruelty. Then repair and fight back.

    I can find more friendly, softcore ways, but don't want right now:) They are more complicated.

    P.s. TheDrgnRbrn, i know, that my english is "not perfect":) but word "if" i not forgot to type before f2p. All other is your own opinion. I have mine, you have yours.
  21. TheDrgnRbrn

    TheDrgnRbrn Trainee Engineer

    So.. This isnt anything to do with Griefers, this is just saying you want an enable-pvp toggle in the server settings, which we dont have yet.. Excellent. -.-
  22. Restoon

    Restoon Trainee Engineer

    How griefer looks to you? Guy, that appears and crush start ship in your station, or saw off all functional blocks, right? So this can't happen, if he not permitted to made any damage at your server, till you add he to friends.

    And NOT toggle your server. Go with your stuff to other, dedicated server, supporetd by devs.
  23. Grim

    Grim Apprentice Engineer

    'Most of griefers just want normal bang-bang-EXPLODE things, which is not present in SE.'
    That's false. I like to kill you and take your stuff. I find much joy out of this. The feeling of taking on another human when their backs are against the wall and they are fighting to survive, it's wonderful. Also completely dominating them is even more wonderful.
  24. Restoon

    Restoon Trainee Engineer

    I said "most". And "kill you and take your stuff" can be a part of PvP. Just no part "I came to your home and kill your dog, pig, grandy, also burn your roses". If someone step in ring - he must be agreed with risks.
  25. Ash87

    Ash87 Senior Engineer

    The servers will have grief, it's inevitable. The majority of griefers are bored code kiddies, who are about 13-15 and have nothing better to do. You can't really prevent this, you can't really be that upset about this... it's just kind of, what they do.

    I really couldn't understand most of this post though, so if there was some subtle point that I'm missing, ignore my somewhat dismissive response.
  26. dpurgert

    dpurgert Apprentice Engineer

    I believe on one side there's "people are ramming their stuff into my stuff, and it's not fair because I wanted to make an open public server where I could play with people and build in peace and the devs should put in all kinds of things so 'anyone' can join the server, but can't break my stuff"

    The other side is "well, yeah, because keeping you down is important to our goals of server domination ... if you don't want that, then make it friends-only, and lock us out?"

    There's a third side that's "THIS IS ALPHA!", and more or less on the fence - they agree that some activities are pretty annoying, but seem to be waiting for currently on-the-table things to get implemented to handle the problem (e.g. automated turrets and factions).

    Then there's the fourth side of EvE bittervets running out of tear buckets (who are all being labeled as "griefers" because the EvE definition of "griefing" is a lot more narrow than what other people consider "griefing" ... to the point where I'm considering that some of the people crying about "griefers" would call me a "greifer" in a game of Risk when I invade one of their poorly-manned outlying territories...) ;)

    That about sums it up, I think.
  27. Grim

    Grim Apprentice Engineer

    That should be a part of survival. If you don't want all of your stuff to go away because you cannot protect it, join a non-pvp server.
  28. eyedentify

    eyedentify Trainee Engineer

    Sure there will allways be people who enjoy destroying the experience for others.
    Thats clear just look at our society.
    On another note... Why should we have to put up with these script Kiddies just because "its what they do ?" thats just stupid reasoning.
    We should have the tools to protect what we build and give anyone who tries to just wreak havoc without the slightest thought or concern.
    And if you dont understand its no surprise.
  29. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

    That sounds a bit passive-aggressive.

    So what tools? Not allowing anyone to play the game without the say so from the server owner... I thought the punishment usually came after the crime?
  30. eyedentify

    eyedentify Trainee Engineer

    I do apollogize if it did sound agressive. But that was not the intention.
    However... my reasoning was as i explained that if you are the server owner you should have the tools to make sure no one ruins the fun in your server and the way you want to play.
    These tools are needed as was stated earlier, there are kiddies who like to destroy other peoples fun just for the heck of it.
    Maybe you think its ok, but i would not put up with it.
    Thats not to say there can not be fighting or combat on my server on a reasonable scale and with some kind of rules so things dont get out of hand and no one whants to play because a small number of people just like to greif.
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