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What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    394
    You can already do that with the scarce resources mod and it does add a good feeling of progression and a reason to visit the different planets and moons. Combine it with mods that add enemy installations on planets and it can get a bit hairy at times as they have all the advantages. This mod, along with others such as the Corruption mod have improved the game no end for me.

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=831739660

    It spreads the resources out like this. The underlined ones are unique to that planet (with a low chance of finding Cobalt rocks on Europa). Starting on the Earth-like means you are reliant on solar plus whatever Uranium you can salvage from any enemies/drop pods. Even if you have advanced modded engines they are likely to need Gold for superconductors. You have to decide if you want to go for a moon shot to find gold but have the issue of fuel since there is scarce Ice there and none on the asteroids on the way or take the long cruise to Europa since the first trip you likely won't have a jump drive (no gold).

    Asteroids: Iron, Silver

    Earth: Iron, Nickel, Cobalt, Silicon, Ice, Magnesium
    Moon: Iron, Nickel, Silicon, Silver, Gold, Ice

    Mars: Iron, Nickel, Silicon, Ice, Platinum
    Europa: Iron, Nickel, Silicon, Silver, Gold, Magnesium, Ice

    Alien: Iron, Nickel, Silicon, Ice, Uranium
    Titan: Iron, Nickel, Silicon, Silver, Gold, Magnesium, Ice

    Moon has 50% chance of having Silver or Gold in surface rocks
    Titan has 10% chance of having Cobalt in surface rocks
    Europa has 80% chance of having Gold in surface rocks
     
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  2. PazDim Trainee Engineer

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    Progression through resource constraints requires a rebalance of component recipes. Without basic resources (iron, nickel, cobalt, silicon) you can not build anything. But they alone will be enough for almost all components.
     
  3. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    My myopic view of “progression”, especially as it relates to ores, would be to make the currently larger components (e.g., large ion thrusters, large hydrogen thrusters, large reactor, etc.) require new, unique (and probably, rare) materials that would make the player go to other off-world or planetary locations to seek their acquisition. As it is now there’s no reason to build small when you can easily build large.

    The problem with having an ore like cobalt only available on Earth would make building metal grids and gravity generator components on other planets nearly impossible, so many assemblies such as hydrogen thrusters or large-grid cargo containers that require these components could not be built. Furthermore, neither could any more advanced tools beyond the basic ones given.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
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  4. Erikblktrn Trainee Engineer

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    The way I see it, wee could go with tiered component, having different grade of component and assembler, demanding the component of the lower level one to build the higher level ones. Having also many level of blocks, demanding rarer component but having better performances. And also adding more ore could be good, namely copper, aluminium and titanium.
     
  5. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Everybody start the chant: “More ore! More ore! More ore!” Keep it going!!
     
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  6. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    Interesting idea, and I like the goal, but one issue is multiplayer DS and PCU limits. Small and large thruster variants have the same PCU value (15 for ion, for example). I believe the same is true for most other types of blocks, except weapons. If one is forced to build only small variants, one might quickly run out of building capacity. In other words, as multiplayer now stands, going large is actually encouraged.
     
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  7. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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  8. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    Well for example you could have certain materials come from gas giants. You could build a platform or ship to harvest them. You could have nebula which require radiation protection or corrosion protection for you to enter. Or a lava planet which requires a lot of cooling. You could grow plants for plastics using pressurised rooms in space which could also produce oxygen giving you more to manage and optimise and eventually automate.

    Currently the only thing you need to really build is a miner. The rest is just spamming assemblers and refineries until you have enough. If you play without uranium you at least need to build a solar array and manage power somewhat.

    What I want is more things to build beyond a miner. More projects with actual in game impact to work on and improve over time. Not with getting the next tier through bashing trees, but with actual design change that I think of and implement.
     
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  9. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,761
    I like the idea of more ore (and for that matter, more resource materials like plant fibers, plastics and carbon fiber, and more gases). I don't like the idea of getting smarter/more skillful/accessing advanced methods by earning points. I think for the standard game one should be able to build any standard block. The complexity of your builds should be a matter of time and available resources. Actually knowing what and how many components it takes to build a refinery, and what resources are required for components, is more valuable to me than points.

    Well, they want to discourage large small grid builds, and large builds in general. I don't know if PCU limits gets them there. I don't actually run a server yet so I don't know if building only small variants would be the general solution early game, if one can build any standard block. For example, if the immediate goal for someone was to get to space and they had access to aluminum they could build a lighter vehicle even if it were large grid. If one could build lighter vehicles they would require less rocket motors, less gyros, etc. They might be useless in combat, but combat isn't always the goal.

    The fewer resources required, the easier and faster it is to build something. The current variety of resources and their distribution up to this point has been driven by, in my opinion, a desire to not scare off new players with complex recipes. Thus, you only need iron to make steel because SE steel doesn't need carbon. I do believe most players could handle not only more complex recipes, but also substitute component requirements for a given block. For instance, one should be able to make a steel armor block, an aluminum armor block, a carbon fiber armor block, a titanium armor block, a concrete armor block, etc.. This way you could build standard blocks that might only be able get them out of a jam or, if the resources are available, build top-notch blocks.

    I like gas giants because it requires a different type of mining and several ways to accomplish it. Just need more uses for the gases. Right now there's just hydrogen and oxygen, and just one use for each.
     
  10. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I'm a gas giant all by myself.
     
  11. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    When you get to be my age, that's not so impressive.
     
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  12. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Nothing compared to my age. And hair grows out of every orifice.
     
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  13. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    Old gamers unite!
     
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  14. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Survival update will require lawns for us to chase people off of.
     
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  15. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    Sadly, I believe lawns are still under Experimental Mode™....
     
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  16. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Why, I’ve been gaming since Moby Dick was a minnow! I played Atari before Atari was a thing. Hell, son, I’m the reason games were invented in the first place!!
     
  17. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    392
    Actually, I'm not technically old for a couple more days. I've been thinking about this scene all year.
     
  18. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    So, have we reached the point now where the Survival Update is considered hype to spur sales so that Keen's staff can make their payments on their condos in Rio? Are there no other blocks or features that we can reasonably expect to see in the update? Has the SE Community had it's say on the subject?
     
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  19. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

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    SE Community...

    [​IMG]


    -Morloc
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    :munch:
     
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  21. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    My biggest fears: Turning this into Empyrion Galactic Survival or Planet Explorers, or worse, further and further toward those Griefer/hacker/troll type sandbox survival games like GTA and DAYz. Focus still needs to be on engineering solutions, Heavy Resource Management, and Maintainability. Co-Op and engineering as the main focus for MP as opposed to Solo Griefer PVP. PVP is ok and on some servers has a code of conduct. However, Realistically, a person is going to create an entire Base, ship, fleet, and all, all by themselves with a little refinery and assembler and take on the universe within a few days or less? I imagine a real solo spacer would be too busy keeping things going to worry about plotting to take on all comers.
    Plopping a pre-configged answer along a fairly linear problem path is also boring. Wolves? Build a system of sensors that triggers production of one or two low flying hunter drones instead of welding up turrets. I mean, seriously, we have a great start for an engineering game yet some have resorted to nesting on servers, easily accumulating vast resources in a short time, and literally spend all day harassing or hunting other players bases while logged off since they no longer can build much or there is nothing to engender their imagination.
    Personally, I do not wish to see a game-survival story unless it is minimum and just an example. My wish would be to have all the elements and leave the story for us. We can fill the workshop with scenarios/worlds I am sure.. I have at least one I want to create but not sure as to the direction of the game yet. STILL.

    PCUS... Real quick. I was never an advocate of monster ships, though I do like some capital ship play. I preferred efficiency and cost savings in ship design among other factors like "speed of manufacture". I do like the idea that some players who could never think inside a smaller box are now having to compromise their creativity and temper it with actual engineering costs and other concerns that effect size and overall design. Do want more PUC's and the ability for an admin to assign more to themselves or another NPC faction to allow for more universal game grids (IE: Admin station sizes and number of:)


    Here's some more focused thoughts on the actual Survival Update wishlist.
    Energy...

    I used to love it when I forgot to energize and then suddenly I was drifting in space. With the addition of H2 that is no longer an issue. (aside from empty bottles) Running out of O2 and H2 makes sense. Energy just seems to lack a certain dynamic anymore. Basically it is relegated to tool battery. Make Energy literally tied to survivability. No energy? No cooling system in the suit.... No comms.... visor will not power. LOSS of GPS signals? Maybe a dark tint visor drops down automatically as an eye safety feature and vision reduced... No HUD? Can't regulate gasses? Maybe the Oxygen farms have a bio-power by-product.... an energy bar which, like an O2 Bottle, can be made (one time use) and used to carry and recharge small amounts of suit power. Would give a little more depth to that 02 Farm that I NEVER will use otherwise.

    Oxygen...

    Pressurization is nice but unrealistic in many ways in the past... Being disabled now is comparable to removing water from a WWII Pacific Islands Scenario. You can play it but it lacks meaning... Realistically, unless a society was extremely resource and labor heavy I don''t see much use for pressurizing a huge hangar or even an entire ship.. But YES to areas. You can limit it to a section size? Seriously, would you in real life pressurize every space on a ship, or limit it due to cost and maintenance to only those areas necessary? Make it more expensive, less efficient, etc, so that engineers have to decide how much, where, and even if practical.

    Weather...

    Add heat and cold.. Environmental suits. (upgrades?) No sun... colder.. etc. Some sort of visual degradation to simulate Haze, fog, dust/snow in the wind. Anything is ALMOST better than nothing... Almost.

    NPC's..
    .Nothing thrilled me more than the day I went to engage an odd named NPC on a server, drew closer to range, and realized it was a Hunter Gunship.. No problem, until it decided to change course and pursue. THAT was exciting! A Mod... but up to that point very little challange. Only two other times I was impressed with NPC's... First was when I was being attacked with no warning and no beacons/antennas on the enemy. SUddenly I had two, albeit, otherwise ineffectual drones bugging my barely defended base. They came in quiet (nopthing else was good about them). Second was when a Mod NPC taunted me with promises of friendship if assisted in their emergency which slowly became taunts and insults. (troll-bot)... lol

    Vehicles...

    Seems a fairly common theme in space, and even several other survival games: Vehicle mechanics and handling mechanics are junk. Of course the truth here is that we are simulating mechanics. However, in real life, I would choose a cyber-wolf pulled cart over a SE vehicle as my commuter vehicle. I don't expect GTA type handling. Better than before, yes, but I think that could be a whole major update unto itself! Implementing some easy road grading, building would be cool. Some method to make smooth graded surfaces other than counting against PCU's.

    Events:
    Meteor showers and ???? That's about all we have and where are they? Meteors were an interesting event but just need to be revisited with a better brush. They seemed simply to spawn off of your grid and weree almost always guarenteed to mess you up. Make them a little more random feeling, less often, and to varying degrees. Even a micro shower of minute particles could damage tanks, etc (holes). How about an Eclipse event (near total darkness), planetary earthquake, solar storm knocks out antenna. Bearing in mind that event driven games get boring quick with a limited or unvaried event structure. I hate to use examples but about the only one that gets me well is Rimworld. It seems to handle this and all the following below pretty well. I don't want another Rimworld, but to me, like The Long Dark, it seems to tackle some interesting game dynamics. Truly, in space, especially as a solo spacer, you would think that mental health and physical conditioning would play a great role in your ability to complete tasks well, and successfully.

    Wear and Tear/Maintenance...
    "Ooops, we forgot to run through the checklist. I swear those reverse thrusters were at 100%. And if we had verified the tanks had no leaks we would have made it to space instead of becoming the namesake of a new planetary crater." Maybe a Jump Drive burns out a small amount of Super Conductors per use and has to have additional components welded back in every so often so it does not lose integrity and end up dead.

    Clang...
    Formerly Bugs... But should be reintroduced as Unexpected and Unreasonable/Unaccountable damage and disaster Events. (Stuff Happens) To me, Clang was probably my only real nemesis other than my own ignorance. In other words, rarely did any game event impede me greatly, especially after being established. Clang was the one thing. All I am saying is.... a broken or damaged block due to wear and tear is great (and expected to a degree) but Suddenly losing dampener power while coming in for a landing, losing gyro control, an antenna glitch, Etc. Obviously do not make this a disaster recovery game but random danger inherent with mechanical and electronic systems failures and random bugs does happen in real life. My best Clang moment, not the most devastating by far, was when Jump drives were new and I ended up being jumped so far across the map that distances were rated in l/s (light seconds). It was a true Star Trek Voyager moment spending all weekend cruising back to center as I accumulated more and more jump drives, making hops as I went along.

    On a Final Note...
    It would be easy to make this like all the other games out there. I don't think that is what is wanted by me or you. So far it isn't but it does remain thin in depth/content. I recently purchased other Space Games... They either seem too linear in SP, run here, do this, with dumb AI and predictable upgrade paths.
     
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  22. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    450
    Reasonably speaking, given the vast number of ideas that have been outright dismissed by the developer, I'm amazed people are realistically expecting anything more than some cosmetic dressing on a half-baked meal.

    -No weather.
    -No text to speech.
    -No environmental hazards.
    -No increased illusion of life on planets
    -No (or very few) new blocks ... I seem to recall a direct quote

    https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/general/topic/glass-for-small-ships

    Space Engineers Support ● 1 week ago
    Hello, Engineers!
    We believe Space Engineers has too many blocks already, and it would increase the game's complexity too much.

    In a game about "engineering"... Right.

    - No concrete (what the hell should we do with all this stone? Dump it out and lag down the server, obvs.. has no other uses)
    - No new physics blocks, and only two that kinda mostly (almost) work as is
    - Bunch of features being moved to "expirimental" status.... including the oft used programmable block, with no real momentum to move more automated options to the timer block.

    I've been watching the KSH support portal like a hawk and I think it's pretty clear what to expect with the future of this game... NPCs and DLC.
     
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  23. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    I expect a days worth of balance work. I pray I am not disappointed.
     
  24. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I have zero expectations. That helps keep my perspective blind, i.e., it’ll be what it’ll be.
     
  25. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Maybe the title should be, "How sophisticated should a sandbox game be?" I say this because I have shot down some decent ideas because I felt they would bloat the file size or take too long to implement or something like that. Does that sort of thing really matter though? Perhaps the game does need procedurally generated planets or every conceivable block type.

    Or, perhaps instead of asking what you want in the game or else, I should be asking what should be essential/vanilla if SE is going to be a credible space engineering sandbox game. The recent success of @Malware 's effort to get pressurization addressed and out of "experimental mode" leads me to believe that the community can actually be clear about wanting something reasonable in the game that enhances the out-of-the-box player experience.

    I just noticed a mod that re-writes the rules for Encounters and gives the player all sorts of options. It does seem like a panacea for someone that want's to have a "game" without having to manually set up every little detail. I don't know how well the mod works, but I like the concept.
     
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  26. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,403
    At the very least there should at least be toys to play with inside the sandbox.

    I will just let myself out.
     
  27. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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  28. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    Added chat bot:
    Something which ends your talking to yourself by giving answers? (just kidding)
    Maybe we get diabolic ship computers with a voice - helloykitty H.A.L. !
     
  29. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    639
    Maybe it will give dire warnings when placing a rotor or piston or wheel? And then an I told you so when it explodes.

    Air tightness fixed (was it broken?) and moved out of experimental, added relitive dampening, added asteroid clusters. Seems good!
     
  30. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,403
    If only....

     
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