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What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Phrixos28 Trainee Engineer

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    I had no idea things were so disorganized within k,S,H!! This is most down heartening! I have waited all my adult life for space engineers to come along, for me , the game is everything i want in a scifi game! However, the constant bugs and lack of communication between the developers and the community is ruining it!! Keen, please get your act together! and sort out the flaws. One other point i wish to make, Why cant we just have more options for block angles and make all blocks available for big and small ships respectivley?
    thank you for taking the time to read this, i do understand you are very busy and you do do an amazing job!
     
  2. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Welcome to the KSH Forums!

    That AMA you read happened back in June (a couple weeks or so before I started this thread). Life moved on from those times and I don't believe anyone feels quite the same way now as they did back then. Many of the things that upset us in the past have either been resolved or have been overshadowed by new things to upset us. Thing is, at no point in this game's life span will there ever be a time when all of us are completely satisfied, and the reason will always be that "Keen is inept." No matter how much initiative, innovation, boldness, fortitude, skill, dedication, determination, stamina, etc. that they clearly show, as long as someone's personal pet peeve has not been addressed to their own level of perfection there will be questions raised and accusations made about Keen's stability and "true motives".

    "Constant bugs" are what you get with a game still in development. This is an especially harsh criticism considering that the current phase of development has been dedicated to squashing bugs and, although many have been addressed, they have come to terms that the answers to some problems are worse than the problems themselves so we might just have to live with them. A simple solution to a problem that originates from the Forums is often made based upon how effective it was in other games/situations and people forget that Keen is using their own game engine (VRage) and those solutions just don't apply. Many people just misinterpret (or misrepresent) the actual problem in order to sound knowledgeable. People with actual knowledge often provide actual solutions without fanfare. Keen has not been squeamish about inviting members of the community that know what they're talking about on board to solve problems.

    "Lack of communication" is in the eye of the beholder. Communication is a two-edged sword. The community can be just as responsible for the destruction of a game as the developer, although only the developer will be blamed for lack of success. The simple truth is that Keen, just as any developer, wants to hear from its community. No developer wants to be told what to do. See the dilemma? This is why Keen constantly asks for feedback in a lot of different ways, yet rarely responds, letting their updates do the talking. It's frustrating from our point of view, but it's actually standard business practice. I suspect Marek knows what would happen if he gave me his personal phone number. I just take solace in the fact that no matter how successful this game is or becomes, it would have been 10 times more successful if he had just listened to me.





    I know. I don't understand why he's being so stubborn, either.
     
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  3. FatsackTony Trainee Engineer

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    Maybe add CO2 and require growing food in space to need air-tight rooms with enough CO2, sunlight, and water?
     
  4. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Well, as I elaborated earlier in the thread, Keen need only add the hunger mechanic (so that character requires nourishment) and a block that uses raw material (plants, wolf/spider) to make something that can be consumed to increase health. This would make hunger vanilla, and Modders would have something to work with to make things as complicated as the individual player desires.

    What makes this "reasonable", in my opinion, is that it shouldn't require re-writing the entire game to implement. The question is, can SE's character handle hunger in addition to needing air to breath, hydrogen for the jet pack, and energy to run tools? Is that a camel's back breaking straw?
     
  5. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    “Survival” really only requires two things: power and oxygen. You can survive without hydrogen for the jetpack, although it is difficult. Everything else beyond that is just empire building.
     
  6. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Yeah, I pretty much concluded that the "Survival" update should be called the "Gameplay" update mainly because even in the vanilla game with everything set to "1" your chances of "surviving" any initial situation is pretty much given. SE was never a survival game and Keen was coerced into using the term for their "normal" game (this is also why it's not fair to compare SE to an actual survival game, and why SE sucks as a survival game. It's not.). If they hadn't implemented air there probably never would have been any inkling to have any survival components. Making the character require air to breathe significantly altered the way people played the game. There was some strong initial resistance because most people did not build airtight ships and stations, nor did they include oxygen generators, conveyors and air vents in their builds. Today it's almost virtuous to have an airtight and pressurized ship/station.

    Right now, air is the only thing you have to work towards in order to survive, and if you are on a planet with air you don't even have to work for that. If hunger was a thing it would add a bit of urgency to finding yourself alone on a planet with no resources, and perhaps some depth to any "survival" scenario.
     
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  7. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I’ve built several “survival” scenarios, always with two objectives: 1) survive the initial conditions (which usually includes finding materials to build a source of power and and oxygen bottle before they run out), and 2) get somewhere (e.g., back “home”, back to a ship, etc.). A “survival” scenario, in my opinion, isn’t very interesting if the player doesn’t have an objective. Lately, I’ve also included a “noob respawning station”, but I’ve set a self-destruct so the player has enough time to grab replacement tools and an oxygen bottle, but little else before everything’s vaporized. In other words, you get one play-over. I try to provide a sense of urgency to the mission. I’ve observed that most of my survival maps are largely ignored, so they aren’t much interest to the SE community. I still get a kick replaying them though, so it’s not a loss for me.
     
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  8. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Don't take it personal. I'd be surprised if the community was interested in any survival maps that they didn't make themselves. If we ever get the ability to create, configure and control NPCs then player-made scenarios will get a boost.

    Other thing is, scenarios need to be hard. Really hard. Keyboard smashing hard. People will whine about how hard a "level" is, until they beat it. Then they're all, "What're you crying about, fanboy. I beat that level long ago. Guess that's because I'm good and, not trying to be harsh here but, you're not." There are many ways to make a scenario hard, but in my opinion NPCs can make that job a lot easier.

    Another thing about "survival" is that it implies that either the "survivor" just has to hold out until rescue arrives or, the "survivor" is going to have to make the best of a bad situation because there is no hope of rescue. SE survival is neither of those. They're more like, "Oops, fell out of space. Here, let me dust myself off, build myself a spacecraft and a NASA launch facility, get back to space and then I'm done." You can increase the difficulty by making resources more scarce, but the only real danger for the character is lack of oxygen (cause your character never needs nourishment ;)) or some sort of physical attack. Essentially, you self-rescue. If I were to do some sort of survival scenario, it would have to include hope of rescue. Either someone must be looking to rescue the player, or the player must be able to attract the attention of someone that will attempt to rescue them. You can do this now if you have at least two willing players. The "survivor" has to stabilize their situation and then attract the attention of rescue. "Rescue" can only have a general idea at best of where "survivor" might be, and they should not start off close by. Game gets more interesting If "survivor" and/or "rescue" becomes plural. Configurable, controllable NPCs would make creating scenarios like that a lot easier.
     
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  9. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Preach it! I agree with everything you've said.

    I'll never be famous for my maps. That's OK. I build them for me, even though I know all the idiosyncrasies, tweaks, and traps about them, I still enjoy playing them through, and usually more than once. I like to use different approaches to solve the problem. I'll stick with my formula of creating a player objective(s) so the survival scenario has some meat to it. And, yes, I really like kicking out the "hardcore" starts with few starting resources. Guts, baby...that's what it takes to play my maps! Guts and gumption...Forrest Gumption... :p
     
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  10. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    I just play along with a scenario I get in my head....back in the day we relied on imagination...you kids nowadays know nothing about that! LOL jk
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  11. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Who are ya calling “you kids”, sonny!?!
     
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  12. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

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    Someone need to rethink what being an "adult" is.
     
  13. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    That is what modders are for... lol
     
  14. Regn Trainee Engineer

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    I don't know what Space Engineers need.

    But, I do know what Space Engineers don't need.

    And what Space Engineers doesn't need are another 500 additional components made just to clutter up the GUI for eating and drinking, and for preventing diseases, toxins, fractures, and hypothermia, for sleeping, shitting, pissing, burping, and farting. It doesn't need another 30 HUD elements with icons and warning icons flashing in white, cyan, red, green, blue, yellow, orange, and purple to display that we need to eat and drink every 10 seconds, and that we randomly pulled a disease, and a toxin, and a fracture, and hypothermia, for no reason, and that we need to sleep because we're out of mana like in Morrowind, and that we need to frequent the bathroom due to how many times we clicked on a consumable. It's just as stupid as having the player camera regulate itself to light that strafes the screen WHEN MY OWN EYES WATCHING THE SCREEN LITERALLY DOES THE EXACT SAME THING SO NOW MY EYES NEED TO REGULATE TO THE EYES THAT ARE REGULATING TO THE REGULATING OF THE LIGHTS! Now I'm smoking a cigarette whilst watching my character smoking a cigarette which results in my character getting cancer, so now it's time to build a cancer treatment block for myself so that I won't die from cancer, and a cancer support group block for my friends so that they won't die from grief, and then of course there's the school shooting block, tumblr consumable, and kim karadashian suit upgrade, omg.

    In other words, nothing. I expect nothing. Nothing is perfectly within reason.
     
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  15. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    The only thing that is truly unreasonable at this point is me expecting you to have read the previous 14 pages. I know. It's a lot. However, if you had you would have learned that we have discussed what you "know" Space Engineers doesn't need at length and the consensus is that just because every other game has somehow managed to screw up things like hunger, there's no need for Keen to do the same with SE.

    When I say "reasonable" I mean that the suggestion should add depth to the game, should not have a significant impact on performance, and could be implemented seamlessly so that existing worlds/builds don't have to be completely redesigned. I would like to say it also means easy for staff to do, but I know what seems easy to me (because I don't know anything) can be a nightmare for a programmer. Also, since we are talking about the vanilla game, things that are added should be simple and direct, not fancy and complicated. When Keen adds something to the game, Modders can use it as a basis for more complex applications.

    There are things most of us can agree should be in the game. The game started with no air, gravity or planets. Initially, Keen thought those things weren't necessary. Today it is difficult to imagine playing the game without those features.

    I believe the vanilla game could do with a hunger mechanic. That simply means that your character should periodically take some nourishment, and not doing so should affect its health. My particular suggestion is that it should take days (game time) for a character to die from hunger. I left out the elimination of waste because in the vanilla game we can assume the suit handles that. Simple and direct. A Modder could easily start with that and add to it all sorts of things the character could eat, which things are better to eat than others, and how hard these things are to find and process. They could even add the poop mechanic. This way vanilla purists can have a more realistic game experience without mods, and the mods would be there if they decided to step up their game. Sound reasonable?

    "500 additional components made just to clutter up the GUI for eating and drinking, and for preventing diseases, toxins, fractures, and hypothermia, for sleeping, shitting, pissing, burping, and farting. It doesn't need another 30 HUD elements with icons and warning icons flashing in white, cyan, red, green, blue, yellow, orange, and purple to display that we need to eat and drink every 10 seconds, and that we randomly pulled a disease, and a toxin, and a fracture, and hypothermia, for no reason, and that we need to sleep because we're out of mana like in Morrowind, and that we need to frequent the bathroom due to how many times we clicked on a consumable..." is definitely not reasonable, and no one in this thread, that I can tell, has suggested any of it. At least, not seriously.

    I'm not going to address the lighting issue because at this point you either know how to adjust your video settings or you don't, and no matter what you do you'll never get it perfect, and Keen has done just about all they can from their end. Therefore, it's not reasonable to expect any improvement in that area in the "Survival Update".

    Now I guess I'll see if I can't find that cancer mod on the Workshop ;)
     
  16. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    By 2077 I would expect that we would be harnessing energy from farts...sort of like a fusion furnace...that sort of thing. It would be awesome! Personally, I would never need to mine and refine uranium ever again! Oh, yeah, there goes another one!!
     
  17. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Me personally I am not a fan of the hunger / thirst mechanics in games. I have yet to find a game where this element is even close to realistic. Most have you managing your hunger and thirst so often you cant even get to do anything else. There is a title out there even if you have the time set to realistic you have to eat every 15 to 20 mins or you "starve to death" I am pretty sure I have went hours on end without eating in real life and I am fi...... :woot:
     
  18. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    It doesn't have to be hyper realistic, only as realistic as the rest of the game is to be good enough.
     
  19. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    DAYS

    In order to properly implement a hunger mechanic in SE (in my opinion) it should take days (game time) to kill you, not minutes. Days. If Keen adds the simple mechanic, and a block that processes organic material into some sort of nutritional supplement, that should work for vanilla-only players, and they will have the option to turn it off. Modders can then take the mechanic and the block and make whatever anyone willing to use mods wants. No one is "forced" to live with it.

    Hunger should be in the game. It shouldn't be the game.
     
  20. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    All this talk about hunger has made me hungry for...wait for it...popcorn!!!:munch:
     
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  21. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    Why is it I think your favorite cologne is called "Ode de Redenbacher"?:p
     
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  22. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    @Stardriver907 If they could make it be that way I am for that. Sadly most games have it skewed to just mere minutes and that is a big peeve of mine. :)
     
  23. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    The hunger mechanic in Medieval Engineers is not bad. Being hungry doesn't kill you as far as I've seen. It just reduces your energy to the point of constant exhaustion. It's also not a constant nag although I'd decrease the default rate so it would take longer to starve.
     
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  24. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    [​IMG]
    Space engineer runs out of supplies, Circa Survival Update, 2019
     
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  25. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    @zachusaman that could also be me when I run out of ideas on what to build next! LOL
     
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  26. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Well, the current Daily Needs Mk3 mod makes time-to-starvation player-configurable with a default of character needing to eat something once per (game) day. I believe this means character may take damage if they don't consume something at least once a day. I'm not sure how long one can remain alive without eating, but it's not minutes. Unless you make it that way.

    It's not a matter of if. Simply add the mechanic to the vanilla game and let players/Modders adjust it to their liking or turn it off altogether.

    I say "simply" because I don't see it being any different from needing oxygen or energy the way we do in the game today. Those of us that are willing to use mods are enjoying the enhanced experience the feature provides. I just don't think those that prefer a pure-vanilla experience need to be left out with no choice except to load a mod.
     
  27. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    I agree it would be nice and more "realistic" I just have not found a game that really employs the hunger thirst mechanic well. I hear ME has it down pretty well but I just haven't gotten around to give ME another chance. I just didn't seem to enjoy ME as much as SE. :)
     
  28. Thermonuklear Junior Engineer

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    Recent teasers imply we get some new blocks to play with.


     
  29. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    You must be asleep because you're dreaming!
     
  30. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    Yeah, these are blocks either previously teased or listed as "In Progress" on the support site. Some of the other teasers (like today's, and the one with the busted yellow ship) are a bit... *yawn*... more nebulous (and, thus, don't... *yawn*... work as "teases").
     
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