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What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,866
    With a side of steamed Sabroid legs.

    And let me just say that the conveyor hinge deserves to be a standard block, especially now that we're going to have PCU limits. If I am trying to build some sort of articulated gadget, it just takes less blocks if I use the hinge. I'm guessing the "survival/gameplay update" means we're getting more blocks. I hope the conveyor hinge is one of them.
     
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  2. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,682

    A definite yes on hinges. It will allow for the engineering that we lack. The rotor doesn't make a great hinge at for the reasons that you described... plus SPACE. I have to set a rotor at 90 degrees and then make all kinds of accommodations for it. It's like hammering a nail with a screwdriver. I think 90% of what we use rotors for would best be served with a hinge.

    Oh... and +1 on the popcorn machine... though a coffee maker would be more appreciated.
     
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  3. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Know what else? The Paint/Delete Cursor is a mod that I use extensively. Know how in creative when you have to have a block in your hand to highlight another block? This mod adds a "block" that looks like this:
    [​IMG]
    It doesn't obscure any other block, and it's great for finding out if there's room and a mount point there so you can place a block. I find it quite handy, and it doesn't do jack to performance. I think it should be standard.
     
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  4. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    I hope they replace their hydrogen generator concept with a biofuel engine. Runs on trees or algae. Probably requires oxygen, but that's implied by the existence of the fuel.
     
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  5. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    There's another mod block that allows you to sync blocks of the same color to it. So if you change the color of that particular block, it changes all of the other blocks with the same color value. Even if it was only available in creative mode, it's a real time saver when you're trying out different paint-jobs. Recoloring everything by hand or finding and replacing in XML is kind of tedious.
     
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  6. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    639
    Gonna add something else I think is reasonable (and really, really needs doing) to the list which is going over the exploration ships and getting rid of some of the silly ones. Because some of them are really silly and almost useless except for scrap. Which they typically give vast quantities of.

    Got back into playing SE survival recently (with no helmet) with my old helmetless survival world on a jump drive journey to a remote planet. Have found a couple of exploration ships on the trip. The first one was a small ship gone large called the Coockie Cutter or something (can't remember properly, cut the thrusters off then ventilated it for exploding my grinder ship due to poorly placed gyroscopes). This ship felt very weird with its interior, gimmicky hidden weapons that come out on pistons and it generally being setup as some kind of fighter but lacking sufficent reactor power to not cap out when thrusting forward. Probably could have converted it to something useable but with no helmets it was scrap. Unfortunate as it was a very good looking ship.

    Second one I found was some giant red thing with a big pole sticking out the front and loads and loads of power. Cut it in half and stuck it on the front of the crashed red ship (Pancake) backwards, so I now have some reverse thrust! Then set to grinding up the rest of it with the shattered remains of the Pancakes grinder pit (rotor accident, should have known) and found that I had suddenly obtained 100k of uranium ingots. I am usually very enthusiastic about mining lots of uranium and had got a quite considerable 1k of ingots. Now I have more than I could ever possibly need.

    Stuff like this, in the survival game of SE just ruins it to be honest. Finding ships that are flawed is fine you can do them up and then be really pleased with it. But free recource drops like this are quite silly. KEEN really needs to go through this list and cull some of the worst offenders. You shouldn't just find 100k of uranium ingots like that. I think it is at the point now where the game is actually made worse by the precence of some of these. Obvious creative builds useless in survival, excessive recource drops from them, ships so old the game has rendered the design obselete about 5 times and so on.
     
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  7. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Hey, I resemble that remark! And just what's wrong with a turbo-hamster drive with all those little wheels spinning round and round?
     
  8. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    Keen can claim SE is whatever they want it to be. Fact of the matter is that people only got interested in the product to a meaningful degree when they introduced the survival mode, and especially multiplayer survival. Ignoring this fact is akin to marketing suicide, especially after miner wars being a shit-show, and basically nobody caring about ME.

    Why do wolves have to net resource? You're starting from a position of a fundamental fallacy. You sometimes need to dispose of something because it is a threat to you or whatever it is you are trying to accomplish. You don't have to subsequently loot the corpse for the interaction to be meaningful. The meaning comes from the act of surviving the threat itself.

    Adding meaningful PVE grids is core to the game: the game is about making grids and doing stuff with grids, so there should be other grids to interact with to make the whole experience meaningful. I just cannot take SE seriously even as a sandbox, when the sandbox is literally mostly devoid of even sand, and the only toys in the sandbox are the ones you placed there yourself. Now I don't know about you, but most time I played in a sandbox, there were other kids there and they brought their toys too. Sometimes we even interacted.

    I got bored with SE when I realized that all of the theory crafting and warship design was basically vapour fantasy because the game doesn't provide a good basis for meaningful PVE/PVP engagements. The mining aspect is the same: why even bother collecting resource to fill virtual quotas that don't do anything except in your head.

    Even for a sandbox, this game lacks even the most basics of gameplay mechanics outside of building and resource management. Only the building aspect is well developed. So really, SE is basically a virtual block builder. Not even a sandbox.
    --- Automerge ---
    The entire set of mechanics where you interact with foreign grids are broken/terrible. Not just the exploration ships, but the pirate cargo ships/stations/installations, and the drones.

    All you have to do is capture one pirate saucer (which packs a puny armament), and you have enough resource to last forever.
     
  9. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    And you can claim whatever you want ;)

    Well, we can either derail the thread by arguing over the definition of sandbox (nine pages, easy) or, since this is my thread, we can say by "sandbox" they mean that the game provides the minimum necessary items and features so that you can mine ore, refine it into components, and build operable ships and stations of your own design. If you want to enhance your experience, you can bring items from outside the sandbox.

    I used the term "reasonable" in the title because when I was writing it I was thinking of all the mods out there that enhance my SE sessions. I subscribe to hundreds of them at the moment, but if I start a brand-spanking new session there is a "core" of about 190 mods/scripts that I feel I have to have or I can't play. There is a subset of those that I feel are so fundamental to a rich standard game that I list them here in the hopes that someone at Keen might agree, at least on some level.

    I also believe that SE is mediocre as a single player game, but the multiplayer experience can be as good or better than any other game. However, the standard multiplayer game will always be mediocre because it only provides the minimum. Just as a real sandbox is just a box of sand.
     
  10. Exousiazo Trainee Engineer

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    5
    I'm reasonably expecting some sort of tech tree to be implemented (Since it states that it is planned on the feedback page) along with the teased blocks such as the wind turbine and generator. I would also hope for a power priority system to be implemented, and some general game play balancing (ex: ore scarcity; one asteroid ≠ limitless ore)

    I'm guessing Keen has more surprises up their sleeve for this update though. Even if its not exactly what we may want, I'm satisfied with the multiplayer progress so I'm optimistic regardless :)
     
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  11. Soup Toaster Apprentice Engineer

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    184
    What I would love to see is something like the jumpdrive block, but it takes you to other solar systems. Seems like it wouldn't be that hard. In Space Engineers a solar system is just a savegame file, the block would save the world file you're currently in, load a different savegame world file and deposit you at a random location within 5000km of a planet. Done. Call it a HyperDrive, have a simple system so that people can download solar systems made by other authors and add them to the list of destinations your HyperDrive has and off you go.

    That and a way to make more lively solar systems. The game needs a way to load and unload predefined grids like it does with the random ships that spawn and despawn. That way we could have solar systems with all kinds of bases and stations that load and unload from the gameworld depending on the players distance from them.

    With just those two things the community could build entire universes. Just give us the basic functionality and we could build the models and solar systems. I mean, we already are...
     
  12. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    This is a statement of fact. Player counts on steam charts coincided with major content releases and the biggest spikes coincided with survival and MP being released. SE has never sustained large numbers (things usually drop to around 5K within a month of major release as people get bored with the title quickly. The data backs this up clearly.

    I agree, you basically need to play this game modded after messing around for a few hours. While modding is amazing, and devs/franchises survive on the strength of modding communities (Bethesda's ES and Fallout games for eg), you need a really great product that a lot of people playing to make a thriving mod community. SE is not one of those games, and so the effective reliance of mods is a failing. And a major one of many.

    SE has the promise of being a great MP game, but in practice it quickly becomes terrible. If you play coop, then you run into the same problem of having nothing to do in the world, except build things, only together.

    PVP is just broken in so many ways that it never really gets going.

    The only place SE has really succeeded in as, is being a virtual lego mindstorms, letting you do block building and sophisticated programming.

    And finishing off: I think it is entirely reasonable for a game that has gained most of it's popularity through it's survival mode, and that has placeholders/under-developed PVE features in that survival mode because they know it's important, to actually develop the pirate/exploration into something that isn't a incomplete/dysfunctional joke. These aren't minimal features, they are incomplete features by any reasonable standard.
     
  13. TenshouYoku Trainee Engineer

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    99
    I actually just wanted SE to be more stable with massive block builds. So that I can possibly spawn in some really big ships and expect the game doesn't fall to its knees when I go gungho with that in a war and people wouldn't tell you "you can't build that, that is going to kill the server" when you are building a big battleship in survival servers.
    Which is why this MP patch on better MP performance and handling of bigger grids is particularily important. With better handling, old limits (such as no extremely big ships to prevent the simspeed from commiting sudoku) could be eased up a bit, and more players can be enlisted on the same ship/other ships without severe lagging/streaming issues, for this game that is mainly focused on building cool stuff - It would be heartbreaking to not be able to bring in the cool stuff you built and throw it into the harsh reality of real pvp combat.

    As for the getting bored part.....what game isn't like that? New update, the hype train running in and left like in a very short period of time, almost every game sort of has this kind of syndrome one way another. Especially with how games are constructed nowadays people just tend to forget things really quickly with very little replay value.

    I am always wondering what people wanted in survival. Food and thirst, which is something the Medival guys wanted to get rid of? Eve if we had one at most it will be just another Minecraft-esque hunger system, and it was there simply because there is not an "energy" bar like we had in SE. Oxygen is shoddy because of possibly how Keen implemented it and because it's volumetric nature makes it inherently difficult to be resource friendly. I am not really that into survival games (even with probably other survival games it just goes boring for me as well real quick), so if anybody have better ideas other than hunger/thirst and better combat AI from the pirates side do note here, thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  14. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,866
    Heh. When I said you could claim whatever you want, I meant in your own thread ;). In this thread we are not concerned about SE sustaining any numbers, large or not. The game does not bore me, so forgive me if I don't understand why it bores others. Please don't try to explain it to me. I don't care. Really.

    Me too.
     
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  15. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    437
    The intersection between realism, and challenging engineering gameplay.

    And popcorn machines.
     
  16. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    This is precisely why I want PVE actors/grids that aren't the trash we have now. PVE is fun, filling up bars like in a traditional survival game (food, water) is rarely fun. The only game I think that did it well is Don't Starve.

    Of course every game has a lifecycle because players get bored, but SE clearly has awful player retention. They had very good sales (Roughly one million), but proportionately nobody plays the title to any significant degree. It's already at end of lifecycle and it's never even left Beta.
     
  17. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,682
    Well, hopefully when they get this multiplayer release done, they'll go back and rethink the NPC spawn system. Cargo ships, encounter ships, pirate ships, drone spawning, are all basically the same mechanic, but each with features the others cannot use. For example, you can create semi-random amounts of loot in cargo ship cargo containers... but the feature doesn't work for the others. The respawn ship feature is really clunky regarding where and how to spawn in atmospheres.

    I'd also like to see a generic Dictionary of string variables attached to each player ID. NPC programmable blocks should be able to get/set and create entries in the dictionary for each player. That would go a long way in creating custom responses to each player when encountered: disposition, trade, etc.

    More tools for content creators. If you build it, they will come - Field of Dreams
     
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  18. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Thats why I was saying it is "reasonable" to expect that they will rethink the NPC system. It's basically broken, but it contribute immeasurably to the enjoyment of survival. Especially if they seeded the solar system with non-procedural generated content like major trade stations, large concentrations of pirates, and scaled enemies so that you can bite off more and more as your assets grow.

    I think this all poses some major issues with how SE handles adding/spawning grids and cleaning up refuse.
     
  19. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    I can't describe what the game has now as an "NPC System", it definitely needs one though.
     
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  20. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    Yeah, each was designed by a different group of people over several years.

    Cargo ships => classic 9 cargo ships. Also includes the Argentavis pirate ship. In addition to spawning has a custom despawning method.
    Encounter ships => outdated community workshop blueprints. Also includes the pirate stations in space. If undisturbed, has a custom despawning method.
    New game scenarios => some have pre-placed pirate bases on the planets.
    Drone spawning => spawns drones from antennas on the above. Also has a custom despawning method if the player is too far away.
    Respawn ships => player choice instead of medbay spawning. Has the above mentioned atmosphere spawning clunkiness. Has a custom despawning method to "prevent" harvesting abuse.
    Unknown signal/loot pods => semirandom spawns associated with the "skin" system. Didn't get a custom despawning method - the programmer just cranked up the default trash collection settings.

    They do all use the "Prefabs" folder and format. Which, annoyingly, is not the same as a blueprint file format - probably an obstacle to more player-made spawns.
     
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  21. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,415
    Is my Infinity carrier still even in the game? it was made before oxygen and so many of the other blocks that it isn't really "survival ready"... the same is true for so many of those community made ships.

    While it was nice that Keen picked out community made ships for players to find at random, I can't help but feel that for the "Final" game Keen themselves are going to have to make ships for specific roles for the different types of npc's that they want in the game.

    Unless of course there will be no npc system and all there will be is empty drifting ships that do nothing, spiders that appear at a set timer interval within a certain distance from the player that run in a strait line towards the player.... and... sigh.............
     
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  22. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    872
    The infinity carrier had a weird ramp offset to its hangar access, and gravity drive, correct? If so Ive seen it recently.
     
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  23. TenshouYoku Trainee Engineer

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    99
    I never saw it, what does it look like?

    I sometimes wonder what is the criteria for Keen to choose ships from the bunch of ships in workshop.
     
  24. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,467
    @TenshouYoku There were a set of rules once. However a few of the ships were selected before the rules were in place, and pretty much all were added before the current feature set was in place. It's been a long, long time since the last addition. They're quite simply outdated. I'm hoping that will be dealt with in the survival update.
     
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  25. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    872
    It was all grey/unpainted, had an ocean going freighter like windowed bridge area, a front exterior landing pad, and a ramp down to an interior hangar with an odd "head knocker" beam to dodge on my way inside as it opened up to a decent single hangar bay with a large cargo container with connector at the back wall.

    Along its outer sides were gatling and missile turrets, and ion thrusters all around. in front of the large fwd thrust ions left and right there were stacks of artificial masses in front of gravity generators (unidirectional Gravity Drive- a basic "thataway" pile-unknown how balanced)

    Other than the gravity drive and creative window use, it was rather barren inside. Like either a half build ship, or a verrrrry old design from before oxygen.

    ah! here it is:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=695491282&searchtext=infinity+carrier



    someone commented on the big red one with the overcompensating nose section... yeah- I dislike that one as well. Its cargo is a little too overstocked. And once finding this easy to spot one, its just an embarrassment of riches. I purposely pass this one by.
     
  26. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Oh, yeah. I remember finding this one. My first thought was, "SCORE!" But then I realized how ridiculous is was and moved on. I kept a picture of it somewhere.
     
  27. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    872
    Some could say the 50,000 magazines of ammo and 6,000 missiles in a Raiding Station is a little ridiculous.. but at least i can be expected to put that stuff to use somewhat.

    my OP in this topic solves most of the NPC issues though.. Corruption adds NPC interactions to a fine (if a bit over aggressive/frequent) degree, and EEM adds stations and police backup/military reinforcements, and rival competing factions to side with, that occasionally open fire on each other.
     
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  28. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,866
    Well, first there was Update 1.062 which was delivered Christmas Day (sometimes we forget how hard Keen's staff will work to deliver). "Rules", I believe, were that your build should be vanilla. Tagging your blueprint "exploration" would notify staff that you wanted your build to be a candidate. You can probably guess what happened.
     
  29. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,275
    Actually, it's 50,000 steel plates and gobs of other components, 10,000 25 x 184mm rounds, 500 missiles, and 500 explosive packs. Yeah, it's a nice haul and so easy to grab with a single, simple basic hand grinder and the intestinal fortitude to do it. But your point is very valid.
    --- Automerge ---
    Gee, I didn't know that. Also, to be "valid" for consideration, didn't the build also need to exclude rotors and pistons?
     
  30. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    639
    I think this is one of the problems to be honest, the engineer being able to raid these places. Feels way too easy for the amount of reward you get.

    Which is why playing with no helmet is amazing - suit cheesing becomes a useless strategy because you die in about 10 seconds outside of your ship.
     
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