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What is so game breaking about piston and rotor glitches?

Discussion in 'General' started by Thedevistator, Feb 15, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    So this is my question to the community, what is so game breaking about Pistons and rotors. I'm asking why does keen need to fix this problem so quick I don't get it. If someone can explain please do so I'd like that :) It's just people seem to be over reacting in my opinion that's all.
     
  2. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    Well, basicly so far in this game you have two means to actually "engineer" some smart and functional contraptions: pistons and rotors. And neither of them is working properly in longer term. Since engineering is pretty much why people play this game they are overreacting. It's like playing alpha of FIFA 2016 but shooting and passing the ball is not working properly yet. But spending time to fix it in alpha is not good idea, we have to wait for beta.
     
  3. MegaMiner Junior Engineer

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    At this point I don't think you could call an immediate fix 'quick', its been a problem for several months. It has been getting worse as well. It used to only be a problem on multiplayer, but now it has become an issue in single player as well. The blocks are basically unusable as they detonate and destroy huge sections of both sides of the rotor. Since many existing designs, including prefabs, have them, it is thus game breaking. I honestly haven't been playing the game the last few weeks, and while this isn't the main or even a big reason, it didn't help to lose ships and stations I had worked a lot of hours on.

    Currently playing Unturned, waiting for ME to unlock.
     
  4. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    things i like to build in SE is simply not possible without pistons and rotors.
    and in those applications they simply break,or start shaking and self destruct.
     
  5. Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    to me, game breaking, means you can't play the game AT ALL.
    So, there is nothing GAME BREAKING about pistons and rotors.
    Now the bug where you couldn't build new ships, nor grind down old ones, THAT was game breaking.
     
  6. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    read me plz

    http://forums.keenswh.com/post/pistons-how-to-uise-them-how-not-to-and-physics-issues-you-may-not-realise-7294985?pid=1286177277#post1286177277


    they are NOT as broken as people consider. they have issues and the netcode/floating point update issues are what utterly kill them client side in multiplayer which is why they are so destructive there. noone will say that they are not.

    in single player, they have simply been abused by people who dont really understand whats going on behind the screen image and instead of altering the design just repeat the same mistakes over and over instead of steeping back a little and going ok this isnt working how can I fix this or even more accurately. How am i doing this wrong and what can i do to prevent the issues occurring again.



    the "game breaking" aspect comes from the fact that when they do fail. the results end up being pretty spectacular. but that said pretty much any mechanical system is like that when it fails. they fail BIG. but instead of learning from the experiance and re-engineering to counter they either stop or just do the same thing over DESPITE the evidence that it doesn't work.


    rotors have different issues that i am starting to look at but they are based on the same cause from the subgrid/inertia issues causing physics issues and te fact that it can cause rotation you may not want.

    now for the naysayers who will simply accuse me of being a fanboi. this lovely little thing thing has 44 pistons working at the same time, with another 6 for a pair of smaller small ship extruders. i have had this running in a creative format for a couple of weeks now. and in a survival format for a few days and it has yet to fail even ONCE and i have been testing it for repeated use. i am talking 0 damage to itself, the thing it is making and , no detonating pistons or anything.
    thats a stroke length of 110 meters. im going to ask one of the Utubers to do a vid of it in action for more proof that it works.

    [​IMG]


    and at the far end of the ship

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Textor Junior Engineer

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    So far all of my experience in testing pistons, rotors, and landing gear results in me concluding either one of two things:

    1. Human error.
    2. Netcode sync issues.

    The latter is something that I think needs to be addressed during beta, because a quick hack to get it to work properly either won't work or will make everything a lot worse in the end. The former can be corrected by education, such as Carrion's piston thread he mentioned.
     
  8. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    1,500
    Im with Carrion on this one again. There is nothing wrong with Rotors or Pistons IF they are used in the correct manner and application. There is nothing "broken" about this game. This is by far the most stable Alpha I have ever played in amd out of Steam. You must understand the physics behind them to be able to utilise them 100%. Too many people are building imo ludicrous designed ships/stations and expecting them to function first time. This is not the case. Designs must be ENGINEERED and refined if need be. This is why some players including me find this game very addictive (in a good way) because In the end it is actually down to problem solving. And true engineers love a bit of problem solving =) even if the game doesn't function at 100% we will make it work.

    HJ
     
  9. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    I have to agree about learning how to work with Pistons and rotors instead of saying it's just broken, in fact that's probably why I never had trouble with rotors or Pistons. People need to learn to use their engineering skills (Example: put locks on Pistons and rotors if they are used on moving ships). I've never had a problem with bugs in his game besides a few that where fixed immediately after (like Friday or maybe Monday and sometimes Thursday).
     
  10. bobmin357 Apprentice Engineer

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    I haven't had much trouble with pistons on stations, but I'll agree to the human error factor being a big part of it. For rotors however most of the error comes (in my opinion) from the interface being so damn confusing. I've taken to putting a single block on the rotor and testing it's operation to see if I've got the thing turning rightly before I'll add anything else to it. Half the time the rotor turns in the direction I didn't want it to go, plus I've seen the darn things turn for no apparent reason. The rotor interface could stand better tool tips and cleaning up.

    My one attempt at putting piston driven retractable landing gear on a ship worked wonderfully, then the landing gear exploded (all four gears blew) on a ship that wasn't moving and was supposedly locked down and not in use. Space gremlins if you ask me.
     
  11. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    Here's another good question who do we blame keen for not having a complete netcode to work with the physics engine, or Havock for not having a good enough engine to handle this problem.
     
  12. Valiance Apprentice Engineer

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    If some people here think pistons/rotors have "issues" now, apparently you'd forgotten or weren't around when they were first released. Oh good heavens ...

    You could be doing absolutely nothing, and come back to either ... the fragile piston detaching itself, or the rotor exploding for no reason.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2015
  13. Textor Junior Engineer

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    Yeah, I think for the most part these issues have gone away.
     
  14. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    If anything, I've actually found pistons to be more durable than I expected. I made a parallel linkage with pistons and rotors and... frankly it should have self-destructed the moment I tried to move something with it.

    Every time I thought there was damage, I unhooked everything and it was fine. Not even the piston head canted at a 30-degree angle off from the body was separated, and I was POSITIVE that had separated.
    I generally set rotor min/max ranges both to 0° before I build with them. If they're out-of-range I'll toss the rotational speed in one direction by a small amount and wait for them to snap into place, then turn torque and braking force both to 0.

    As for direction, there are markers on the rotor itself and they are accurate. Positive means the rotor will turn in the direction of the numbers counting up. Negative means numbers counting down. Never had a problem with a rotor that I'd reffed this way turning the wrong way.
     
  15. DaveUnder Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm with engineers regarding people building "crasy" constructions, that fail for "crasyness" reasons if you apply inertia etc.

    Issue I see as bug is that grids sometimes generate "movement" out of nothing.
    Platform is stationary grid -> I have small ship locked on it with small piston+landing gears, ship is powered off after that.
    No collison to ship gird, but somehow the ship is starting "twitching and jumping" on pistons like mad cow on ice.
    My ship is build stable enough by engineering concepts. 3 legs for landing, spread in logical sence regarding physics.(in bug sections have posted it on several topics).

    These kind of issues worrry me ALOT if not adressed early enough, as they seem to be reason of "possbile mistake in engine core code".
    Even some of peoples "crasy engineering" bugs might be casued (or at least amplify the result) because of the root issue in engine code.

    Dave
     
  16. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    i believe that is a known floating point issue with the landing gear daveunder. not a piston or rotor bug.
     
  17. DaveUnder Apprentice Engineer

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    How can floating point possible issue cause such big movements?
    I would expect to see landing gear itself also change the location in big scale, but landing gear is rigid and holds his position.
    Some microscopical floating point adjustments multiplying into such hard shake? (and thrusters off allows it to add up on every update because no dampeners to counteract?)

    What movement or tension is carried over to piston (or any other part of ship) that causes the ship grid (except landing gears as they keep locked status) to "jump and wobble" when pistons used between landing gear and rest of the ship grid elements?
    From visual point of view I can see only piston expansion-extraction as cause of heavy shaking. Like some tension inside grid and that tries to get loose.

    But yea, that hidden tension can fool me easily on the other hand.

    Anyway keeping such bug unfixed kinda asks for more trouble and more complicated debugging for new features and bugs :)
     
  18. Malware Master Engineer

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    While I agree that many rotor and piston problems probably are due to human error, there are some real issues. I play single player exclusively, and I have seen magic rotation issues on the rotors, where trying to use multiple rotors on a single door causes the ship to rotate itself even though the numbers indicate the door should be stable. Not even multiple gyros will help. I have tried many variations which haven't worked, and only a few who has - although human error may be involved in some of the failures.

    I have also seen pistons seemingly tearing themselves apart in flight even on balanced constructs. However my experience is that the pistons /are/ more stable and usable than the rotors. And I theorize that using a speed mod to increase the max speed and never going full speed would help since no part should reaches the max... Anyone tried?
     
  19. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    1,500
    Its all micro meteors. We've underestimated SE's realism =P

    Na landing gear are difficult. You find that physics that rely on mathematical programming have a tendency to exponentially "figit" so after a time they become damaged or explode, espcially in a MP scenario.

    HJ
     
  20. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    1,366
    ya, summing up..
    basic stuff works with pistons and rotors
    human error can break anything
    more advanced stuff does not work with pistons and rotors.

    tipical shaking/oscillating/vibrating/self-exploding/magical forces happen.
    number of pistons/rotors used is irrevelant, complexity is not based on the number of parts.

    a double A arm suspension i made is working well,
    and that is about as complex as i dare to go for now.
    built a proper pushrod suspension, exploded as soon as i activated the gravity generator to see it in action.
     
  21. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    1,409
    the thoery as explained to me by a clanmate is that the floating point makes the entire ship jump around and back, and then the errors get larger and larger before the engine start to think that they are actually entering into contact and then they go BANG as for a microsecond on the update the math says it is inside the collision mesh of another block.

    when we then start to look at multiple grids this error is compounding across them all that leads to even more opportunity for the code to create the error above. and i am pretty sure that KSH are working on it.

    this is the visual representation of 2 things, one i forgot to add to my piston thread.

    1) is the inertia pushing back on the pistons. when they move slow the actual difference between the subgrid position and the position the game things it should be because it doesn't factor that in to the piston expansion is so small as to be no seen. basically they havnt moved far enough for it to be a visual factor but when you move then fast they go totally nuts as the difference is so large its comical.

    2) is the floating point issue as i said again in my thread, pistons work both ways. on a chain with the base of each piston also moving it can get confused as to where the hell it would be pushing from. again lower speeds reduce this to an insignificant level. also No MP. MP BAD as the floating point issue gets even worse with netlag factored in as that is a non piston/rotor/landing gear bug.


    basically the piston is trying to overcome the inertia force (remembering inertia can be static OR dynamic it doesnt mean being still i could mean wanting to do what it is already doing) and pushing back to the position it wants to stay in then it over compensates and back n forth we go, ALWAYS reducing the bounce if you watch it. slowly at 1st then with more precision.
     
  22. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    1,409
    teh rotation of this ship is down to the torque applied by the rotor also being applied to the base ship. so as the door turns so does the ship. turn the torque down and see if that reduces the effect.

    or make a smaller door that will create less torque feed back as it hasnt as much mass to create an inertia well.
     
  23. Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    3,028
    idk why i am putting this here but i am because of the "pistons" and "rotors" discussion(s):

    i have used pistons in a ship to slam against the ships "walls" thus creating movement of the ship in the direction of the pistons hitting the wall(s)

    not sure if that has anything to do with whatever, i just found it interesting i guess.

    you do not get much speed from it though
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2015
  24. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,631
    @carrion no, it seems to have something to do with the collision boxes and the game thinking there are collisions where there should be none.

    The magic rotation happens regardless of whether the rotors are powered or not, and regardless of either torque and breaking settings.

    Might have something to do with the rotor offset though... Gonna try something.
     
  25. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    magic rotation works similar to the trollgravity drives.
    the rotor has 2 parts, there are ways to force em to ahve tension inbetween, and id creates a magical force rotating whatever you want.
    or not want :D

    but i assume this is no bug eighter , lol.
    essentially it can be abused to be the pair of the trollgravity drive.
     
  26. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    i though you ment that the turning was when the doors were opened or closed. do you mean the ship is is turned in that direction when moving?
     
  27. Spets Master Engineer

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    3. Dark Sorcery



    4. Spicy Engineers

    This was way way way back in time, when there was no merge blocks, no pistons, but physics... Jump to min 4:20

     
  28. Textor Junior Engineer

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    They were shifting weights rapidly with a vehicle attached to the base with a single landing gear. This looks like human error.


    Looks like netcode/floating point error to me.
     
  29. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    they are older issues highlighting just how bad things were back int eh day.
     
  30. Spets Master Engineer

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    hey! I know that, dont be so nerd :p

    jk

    I wish I can understand programing more easily :(
     
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