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What multiplayer needs before factions...

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by _Skydiver, May 31, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    So dedicated servers were released on Thursday which is quite a big milestone (congratz KSH) and I am already seeing some servers accommodating large amounts of people. This would be great if...

    1. There were enough resources for everone(which leads to my next point)

    2. There was more map space( even the 16 large asteroids are a tiny space for 24 people and above, for the lone wolves out there they wont want to share, getting randomley generated sectors with 3 - 5 asteroids per sector with lots of sectors [StarMade does this really well] is a HUGE MUST or else factions and large servers are pointless)

    3. More astronaut weapons (like a sniper or shotgun for e.g) or else gun fights wont happen and it will all just be very bland

    4. Some form of radar to find people and know where you are.

    5. An easy way to trade that isn't ' you drop me 5 gold and I'll drop 3 platinum'

    without these things dedicated servers with factions will become cramped and to be honest, not fun. Hope KSH sees this, the larger map is a MUST MUST MUST.

    BOLD = NECASSARY

    steam: StolenLux
     
  2. Vdragon Apprentice Engineer

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    This is a spaceship building game, i think it's totally unrelevant.
     
  3. Gheiter Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't see the point for more personal weapons, either. It's not an FPS game. Maybe in the future, but I wouldn't give it any sort of priority over ship weapons.

    What's wrong with that? What would make it better?
    Having it like this makes it way more interesting than a quaranteed fair deal.
     
  4. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    OK so sure space building game. BUT there is no way in hell the only combat there will be is fighter/ship combat, especially considering how costly making a ship is in survival, so sure it isn't necessarily needed, but it would add to the feel of the game and (in my opinion...don't flame someone just because they like an idea you don't).

    Also I don't mean a system that is completely fair trade, I mean something that would allow you to mass trade because you can't hold a lot of goods as an engineer with a small pack and people like buying in bulk for big projects. Also I never once said fair trade, I said easier because flipping through menus to drop stuff can become tedious if (again) you wish to mass trade which I know for sure I would want.

    But all points taken, the only thing that actually TRULY is NECESSARY is to get the bigger map and more resources, and I'm sure everyone can agree with me on that.
     
  5. Dragongaze13 Trainee Engineer

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    The Dev already said they want the spaceships to be the main way to fight eachother.

    I don't think that all these suggestions are more important than the faction system ! And I don't agree with the "securized" trade. The 2

    However, I agree with the bigger maps. Sectors shouldn't be hard to implement.
     
  6. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    Didn't say more important, just said it would make it more fun. Also again, it's not secure trade. It's no ways completely and strictly fair. It'd just to make it easier for mass trade(like I said in my previous post)
     
  7. Trueson Trainee Engineer

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    I agree this is not a FPS but I would not mind seeing a rocket launcher to be used to take out interior turrets as it stands the only way to deal with them in a facility is to slip past at less than 3m/s or to grind them.

    --I'm an engineer I have steel tubes and I have rockets = Rocket launcher
     
  8. Dragongaze13 Trainee Engineer

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    Mass trade = transport ship + conveyors. x) RP & fun.

    Trueson >> There are already explosives, but why not.
     
  9. Maltier Apprentice Engineer

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    There is a suggestion subform, might be better to post there.
     
  10. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    I can agree on 1, 2, 4, and 5.

    Especially on 1 and 2.
     
  11. Jarin Trainee Engineer

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    Agreed with 1 and 2. The game currently doesn't scale well to handle more than half a dozen players.
     
  12. The Churrosaur Junior Engineer

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    Ditto for 1.2 - but that's something that can be fixed with SE Toolbox and some time with your server map.

    Also, an anti-vehicle weapon in a game that revolves around destructible vehicles seems somewhat... logical?
     
  13. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    Who wrote the title of your thread then? It says: "What multiplayers needs before factions..."

    These would all be great features to add, but MP pvp is broken without factions, so that should take priority over these bells and whistles. Indeed, most of your suggestions would make it even worse if they were implemented now: Astronauts are already far more dangerous to ships than vice versa, people are already too easy to find, and a trading screen is just fluff when anybody can take your stuff anyway. (And a bigger map is already possible, even though not yet supported.)
     
  14. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    Pish posh, the title is supposed to get peoples attention. Also in the first post you will see what I said is anything that ISN'T necessary is NOT in bold. So, not just the title, read the full post too.
     
  15. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    457
    You will see in my full post that I did read your post. And you said "BOLD = NECESSARY," not the converse. I am sure you'd have received far less criticism if you had said "everything not in bold is unimportant and all I really want is a bigger map."

    Once again, it is already possible to make maps with more than 16 asteroids and significantly more space than the default. There is no reason for the developers to prioritize messimg around making such maps for us when factions (or at least personal ownership rights) are needed to make multiplayer pvp workable in survival. Currently we have a game that requires hours to build a decent ship but less than two minutes to steal almost any of them.
     
  16. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    Sure you can do that.But it is a mission and the asteroids are still clustered and close together, and them being in such close proximity can cause some major lag because of having to render so much. And some people like to be really far away from the spawn. So unfortunately it is not good enough, as many have agreed with me.
     
  17. DoctorDeathDefying Apprentice Engineer

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    293
    Some of these things seem like good ideas, but luckily you managed to use the bold sparingly and properly - the non-bold features definitely should not take precedence over factions.

    Regarding 1 and 2 - This is absolutely necessary, especially for factions that will want to create large fleets or bases and require more resources and more space. More resources will be available once we get bigger worlds, thus leading into more space. I think infinite worlds are out of the question, given the computing power it takes to run the current finite worlds. However, plenty of people (including myself) have suggested in the past a way to "link" sectors - that is, through way of server configuration or some other avenue, two worlds on dedicated servers could be linked to provide a near-seamless transition between them once the edge of the world was reached - that is, no barrier longer than a simple Loading screen. This would also make it easier to trade, since trading and cargo vessels could easily move between sectors.
    Obviously, I'm straying into "move to suggestions subforum" territory here, but you are correct - bigger worlds with more resources are a must before any large factions can appear or get anything done.

    Regarding 3 - As many have stated, this is Space Engineers, not Space Gunmen. While more astronaut weapons would be useful and fun, they're really unnecessary, and the specific weapons you listed are at the tippy-top of the unnecessary scale. Sniper rifles and shotguns in space are not terribly feasible. The bullet spread from shotguns could very easily hit something fragile, and sniper rifles would need to lead their target big-time in order to actually hit someone or something. Also, if you're a sniper on Earth (or any celestial body), your target is limited to two-dimensional movement from your perspective, making it easier to hit them. In space, not only do they have three-dimensional movement from your perspective, but there is also that glaring "relativity" thing that could screw everything up.
    tl;dr - More weapons, possibly. Those weapons, no.

    Regarding 4 - Probably not Radar specifically, but once antennae are functional, chances are that they will have some sort of linked function along with beacons, moving objects, any form of programming or computers, and the faction system to produce a realistic object-tracking and mapping system. Again, entering "suggestions subforum" territory here.

    Regarding 5 - As stated in 1 and 2, linked sectors would allow for safe vessel-based trading, so trading ships could be escorted or armored themselves. Or, if you wanted to really go Rube Goldberg, you could build a huge conveyor line between your station and the trading faction's station so you could trade anything. Implausible, but would be fun to test!


    Regarding all - All of these features in one form or another will probably be implemented at some point, but none of them are guaranteed to come out before, with, or after factions - to be completely honest, they all seem to be on a level playing field in terms of priority (at least to me, I think it's entirely subjective).
     
  18. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    They are only clustered and close together if you design your map that way. There is a 50km cube to space your asteroids in, so even if you wanted to have no asteroids visible from the surface of any other, you would have room for 216 asteroids. Appealing to what "many" have agreed to does not convince me that the size of maps is more of a hindrance to pvp than the absence of factions.

    Again, without factions or some ownership system, there is barely any reason to build in pvp survival. A big map won't solve this fundamental problem.

    While I agree with and would like to see all of these features or similar ones implemented eventually, none are as pressing as factions for playability and testability. While I also agree that there won't be large teams on default maps even with factions, the current build is barely able to manage large ship pvp anyway. Significant optimization will be needed before that is feasible. Meanwhile, pvp is either broken or reliant on player made rules until factions are added.
     
  19. Xocliw Public Relations Staff

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    2,615
    The one weapon that I think would be cool and could create some interesting scenarios, would be a handheld explosive that you could stick to a block and then set it off with a timer or remote detonator :cool:. Sabotage scenarios or wall/hull/door breachs anyone ;)?
     
  20. Xocliw Public Relations Staff

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    2,615
    I'm thinking time bomb style from Battlefront II :D.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  21. Crewman87 Apprentice Engineer

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    As much as I love ship to ship fights, I do think in the future once everything is more smoothed out and there is time for it, that more hand held weapons would add another interesting aspect to the game. I just have to agree about the turrets, as it currently stands turrets aren't hard to take out, but the means of which we do so seems rather, contradicting of engineering, and no this does not mean I am suggesting a full arsenal of hand held weapons, but a rocket launcher or explosive would be fun. Even though it is a ship building game, I feel that fighting inside ships/structures would also add hours of fun. Again this isn't something that we need right now, but in the future I do hope to see this part of the game receive more content.
     
  22. Xocliw Public Relations Staff

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    2,615
    Another nice idea. I'm thinking of one fired from the shoulder where you could carry a maximum of like 3 rockets and it would have a reload time of about 10 seconds. I think that would create interesting and fun scenarios whereas I worry that sniper rifles would bring the wrong kind of gameplay to Space Engineers. And I think a pistol would be ok seeing as we already have assault rifles.

    But I do agree with you that these aren't a priority for now.
     
  23. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    Considering you can travel a KM in 10 seconds at max speed that still isn't very far away and is still clustered and can cause render issues. So sadly not, I know because I've tried.
     
  24. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    My god I LOVE Star Wars Battlefront 2. Space assault is awesome, and ya, you definitely have the right idea here :D
     
  25. McMaul Trainee Engineer

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    -Asteroids can be added and replaced at any time using tools such as SEToolbox.

    <strong>

    -The map is 50km x 50km. In a default map the asteroid field takes maybe 15km x 15km.


    -How do you figure this is required before factions? I don't even... no.



    -Nice? Yes. Required before factions? Again... no. There are ways to establish a base multiple 10s of km away from the asteroid field without the use of waypoints or 3rd party programs. There are also ways of finding them without the use of waypoints or 3rd party programs.


    -Once again a desirable feature, yet in no way required before factions. There are other, much more efficient ways to trade. You'll have to use your imagination.



    Right, so let me fill you in on why factions are the only update required at the moment to make the game persistent.

    #1) Without factions turrets are either useless or TKing bastards which leave your base open to uncontested raiding.

    #2) Without factions it is damn near impossible to determine if a ship you see is friend or foe. Factions opens the door for IFF beacons to eliminate this issue.

    #3) Factions pave the way for faction beacons which will allow factions to establish bases in deep space. This even makes it more feasible to add more asteroids at larger distances as factions can tag them for navigation. This would in turn eliminate your listed issue of limited space and resources.

    #4) You cannot tell the difference between players in suits based off of their color without factions. We've all been there sitting face to face typing what color you are and flashing your lights. #Factions.

    This being said while I do believe factions are the most relevant update for survival I am by no means trying to say that I feel the dev team should focus their efforts here. I believe the dev team is doing an amazing job and working at an amazing pace. If we get rims for our wheels that keep spinning when we stop that'd be cool too.

    Edit: Formatting
     
  26. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    457
    Render issues when you can only see 8 asteroids at a time? Moreover, you still haven't even tried to respond to why factions are needed. I have a feeling you are either not reading what I write or just not using the right words to express your concerns.

    More asteroids on a big server WILL cause perforamnce drops, but not due to graphics. But this is a netcode optimization issue that IMO is totally unrelated to how broken any pvp is in this game without factions, as McMaul explained in detail. There is no reason to try to scale up the game before implementing all of its core features. You want epic factions battles right out the door, I want the game to work.
     
  27. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    I have read everything ( I started this topic it would be disrespectful not to read it all) Cyber Cheese. I don't think you saw the part talking about the speed, I mean an actual LARGE map with sectors 50 x 50 km is TINY in space, plus if its a large server ( 64 players ) if every person wants their own large asteroid and it has to be put into that space it WILL be cluttered and close by to each other.

    McMaul please read my post thoroughly before replying, you will notice I only said more resources and a larger map was necessary( the rest are all completely tertiary and ARE NOT required before factions ). Also what good are factions if you don't have the resources to make all these turrets because there aren't enough resources or space to go around? So I do believe that my first 2 points must take preference, although you have raised fair enough points.
     
  28. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't see what having too little time to travel between asteroids has to do with factions (or what any of this has to do with factions), which is what both I and McMaul are getting at and which you haven't explained.

    And I am pretty sure we have both listed "what good are factions" absent your changes. Without factions, PvP is just "hide from the griefers if you want to build."
     
  29. Xocliw Public Relations Staff

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    2,615
    I'm glad you agree ;).
     
  30. _Skydiver Trainee Engineer

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    Considering there is no space to hide, that's incorrect. Also the time it takes has much to do with it, easily accessible = easily attack-able. In my opinion space and resources is needed way before factions. And I never said it has anything to do with factions. I said that I believe it should come before factions.

    Also if we want to stick with realism there is usually only about 3 asteroids in a 50km radius of each other. And that is only in the most cluttered and asteroid ridden part of deep space. And like I said before, how can you hide from griefers when there aren't enough resources for you to make something that can be griefed.
     
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