Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

What multiplayer REALLY needs... [ANTI-GRIEF MEASURE SUGGESTION]

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by Louisthau, Jan 8, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Louisthau Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    2
    OK so hello everybody.

    As a long time player of this game, I have eventually found my way onto multi-player servers, where I found madness, friends, enemies and Clang.

    But eventually, either being subject of it, or doing it myself, I came upon griefing. Which in SE consist mostly of spawning with just tools, rushing a base, and drilling/grinding access past its defences, and looting the place.

    I mean its a bit useless to put 8 turrets pointing to the heavily armoured & only entry of your underground complex when a guy with a drill can cir-convent everything and just hand-drill the mountain side to get access. This, we can all agree on.

    Which is what brings me here ; I believe to have a solution. Not a perfect one, but one nonetheless. The rust construction cupboard.
    Which for people who don't know about the game rust, is and item that you place, that gives construction/building privileges to the people registered, and prevents the others to place any blocks.

    I truly believe we could come up with something akin to that for space engineer. Something that would draw power, but would prevent drilling, grinding, welding, and block placing in a certain area (think gravity generator) except for the people of the faction owning the block.

    It would actually force people to build attack ships if they plan to raid bases, and would, in my honest opinion, greatly improve the PvP experience, making each engagement a strategic investment of resources, for a chance at rewards. I also believe it would be good for new players, who could then quickly set up defences as they arrive, and actually have a chance to grow their bases before engaging the other players, instead of having their medbays grinded down by a lone guy roaming around.

    I am not sure if somebody proposed the idea before, or if it is even feasible. But I can hope. Tell me what you think about this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  2. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    382
    I'm 99% sure someone has proposed this idea before, but I couldn't find it. As for the idea itself, I captured a pirate headquarters on the earth like planet, with nothing but a small ship that contained 4 atmospheric thruster, 1 large reactor, one medium cargo container, a few side thrusters and gyros, and a 3 by 3 array of fixed gatling guns. All of this was done in times 1 survival. I can honestly say that this method is faster and safer than trying to burrow under the enemy base. Also you can guard the underside of your base with turrets.
     
  3. FatalPapercut Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,197
    I have to admit that I have zero experience in MP survival, so perhaps my point of view is invalid here, but I'd like to present it anyway.

    Your definition of griefing, "spawning with just tools, rushing a base, and drilling/grinding access past its defences, and looting the place." could be seen as legitimate raiding by someone who could be interpreted as clever rather than suicidal. What better way to get a head start on resources that on taking what;s already been processed? Circumventing defenses is a viable tactic, it's why people aim for critical blocks on a grid instead of aiming to chip away at every single armor block first. So actual griefing, such as it is, is less about the material gain, and more about antagonizing the victim. This is, by my experience, more prevalent in creative mode, where there's absolutely nothing to be gained by the aggressor, though I do not presume the effect is any less infuriating in survival.

    So the difference is really in the motivation in the attacker; to obtain the resources of others, or just to piss them off, and the real question is how to allow the former while stopping the latter. Because otherwise why play PVP at all if you'd rather live in complete safety? There's simply no way to force people to play fair and attack you through your carefully designed defenses except for trust and mutual agreement in the rules of engagement, especially in a sandbox game with the core mechanics of freeform building and terrain deformation. Take those away, and why are you playing SE at all?

    Really, as much as people would like to see a method of forcing everyone to play on an even field where attack and defend have an equal chance of victory, I think the absolute best method to prevent raiding is to design against it. Cover all angles of attack, think like your enemies and plan to counter them. It won't be easy, and it'll probably be easier for the bad guys to get past you regardless of how hard you try, but that's simply the nature of living in a PVP world.

    To prevent griefing, don't allow griefers to play with you, as best as you can do that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. admanter Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    151
    Words of wisdom right here.

    But for an open server, how about a server setting which didnt grant respawn tools.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,225
    some form of tool cupboard from rust as you said.

    that should/could block mining tool voxel destruction by non-owners of the tool cupboard.
    so players can't just medieval style dig under the mighty space base to get in.

    shouldn't block standard rocket/gun damage i mean if a player wants in they'll get in somehow!

    should block only voxel damage around the base but not protect it from enemy player tools
    thats what automated turrets are for after all!

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Vigo the Dudepathian Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    What would solve grieving in se is base guns out ranging ships and have homing missiles, and also adding increasing cool downs to charachter respawns to make constant dying a nonbiable strat.
     
  7. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,225
    adding cooldowns on respawns i'd say yes to.

    homing missiles and longer range turrets....a big no.
    because it would make legit attacking even harder

    a device or block that stops voxel destruction around a base would stop lone man sneak digging in.
     
  8. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,801
    Turning off spawning with tools is helpful. At least there is a cost to the player every time they die holding them.

    In order to prevent griefers from destroying your base by tunneling you have a few options. Warheads have a range of 25 meters. While you are tunneling if you're within 25 meters of a warhead and it goes off you're going to suffer badly. I'd use these with sensors (underground) and set them to small and large ships. Blowing the drills off the front of someone's ship is pretty effective. Just be sure the warhead is more than 25 meters underground if you don't want to create a crater.

    To kill players, you should have some buffer space around your base underground. In this airspace, set up interior turrets and fill them with ammo.

    There's no way to stop a persistent griefer. However, if you can slow them down to the point it takes several days to penetrate your base, more than likely they won't invest that kind of time.

    The fallacy is thinking that just because your base is underground you don't have to DEFEND it. Having your base underground makes it harder to detect.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,225
    wait wait wait....hold up.....really stupid idea coming in............


    say you blow up a ton of land until you make a tiny little piece of floating voxel..........
    slap heavy armor blocks around that and build off that...
    a floating base suspected by a piece of voxel protected by layers of heavy armor?
     
  10. rexxar Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,530
  11. Caatalyst Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    102
    I like the OP suggestion.

    If anyone has played Exile mod on Arma 3, they use territory flags.

    You place your flag and it stops any other players from building within your perimeter. You can level up your flag and increase the space you have.

    Something similar for SE would work. Players would need to defend their flag and keep it well hidden / surrounded by defences. If an enemy player steals the flag then the attacker can do as they please until the owner restores it.

    I've noticed some servers reset planet voxels. If there was a script or something that stopped voxels within the territory radius been reset then players could also build into mountains / the ground without issues.
     
  12. SchmoJoe Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    36
    I keep my important bases mobile so I don't have this problem. As long as I have turrets in the right places, I'm good to go.

    Any bases attached to surfaces usually only have a med bay, power, beacon refinery and assembler. If someone finds it, it's not the end of the world if it disappears.

    If I were to base on a planet or asteroid, interior turrets would definitely be deployed and all my production blocks would be on the ceiling. Then once someone found my location I'd grind down my base and move.
     
  13. gchristopher Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    132
    Heh, yeah right. Given how easy it is to turret-snipe any conventional defense, and then erase half the ship with gatling fire or lob a few warheads to destroy any fancy ship parts or grief any carefully dug voxel areas, there really is no way to protect your work when you're offline. (Maybe keep all bases moving at 100 m/s constantly, always.) Hiding is the only real defense.

    SE is like Minecraft before there were any protection plugins; the only way to play and expect to keep anything is a whitelisted server with trustworthy players.

    Not to endorse any particular approach to fixing it, but it's worth recognizing that open multiplayer games are completely lacking methods of protecting work, where destroying something takes 1/1000th the time it takes to build it. (And in the case of voxel destruction, is utterly irreversible short of GM action.)

    And actually, right now that's perfectly okay! Keen is steadily plugging away at the basics: game engine, API frameworks, tools, and networking. They've made great progress in the last year, too. Setting up systems for PVP and PVE gameplay can come later.
     
  14. SchmoJoe Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    36
    And that's why I don't keep all my eggs in one basket. Minimal large block ship and a few minimal bases scattered about.

    I see people on my server build these huge creations that can be seen from miles away and then cry when someone raids them.

    The only time I make anything big, I play offline or on a server that's not PVP. I never complain when my stuff goes missing because I understand what's possible and how to keep from getting disappointed.
     
  15. Roxette Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,399
    What multiplayer really needs right now is for planets, asteroids and ships to be reliably visible to the players, and not become randomly invisible until you reconnect multiple times.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  16. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    348
    Why do PVE noobs always call players that attack them griefers? It really is an overused and meaningless word.

    In your base they simply outsmarted your defences. Clearly you didn't have enough turrets and high likely had blind spots. I've taken oven a station weighing 20 million that had 100+ turrets just by finding a blindspot and going in with a grinder.

    Build smart, use a combination of gatling turrets and interior turrets.
    --- Automerge ---
    This game doesn't need any more stuff to promote the boring PVE mentality. Already 99% of SE players prefer to hide in the middle of nowhere and lag servers with giant ships they never intend to use. This game is turning into Sim City Space Builder.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,225

    come on it does suck when you're just starting out trying to get a sample of each ore then you get missile spammed to death by Darth Dickhead.
    I'd be feeling some pretty strong grief that at if i spent an hour or so building a ship just for it to get roflstomped in a heartbeat by a player that has nothing better to do..............because there honestly IS nothing better to do. :p

    SE is similar to Rust in alot of ways...build a base or ship...then go raid players.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    I've been suggesting this for ages here and it always get disagreed...
    Bases should offer much more protection from the outside, destroying your stuff easy and free simply won't make it a good decent multiplayer game unless you just want to hide and "know" there are other players out there.
    Not much of a multiplayer experience there...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,225

    I agree with this.....

    it takes much longer to grind a door you don't own so why not the same for all blocks?

    the SE wiki states that
    • Grinding the door takes 3x longer if you do not own it.
    its like a player can rip though blocks in a matter of split seconds with the elite grinder.........so blah blah blah use more auto aiming turrets -_-
     
  20. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    348
    There is already little PVP action in this game. Most players prefer to hide then fight and you are suggesting we should encourage more players to avoid conflict?
     
  21. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    Hiding should always be a solution but finding people should also be encouraged.
    There are more ways to get players interact with each other other then just steal stuff...
    Have a need for antenna's to let other people find you...
    Passive trading orders setup for example.
    A block wich requests auto enemy ships to turn off all weapons and your turets won't fire on it as long as the weapons stay off etc.
    more interesting stuff to discover other then just ores.
    Places where people want to be.

    but also that players can build small bases for wich enemy players would think: i,m not gonna raid that it's not worth my time or resources...
    Hardly worth resources if it's free to grind down...

    an ownership block wich prevents drilling or grinding would be perfect!
    this block could even be a small beacon for that part, players really may find it.
    They should use ramming or weapons to break trough the base and destroy this block.
    Once it is destroyed then you can grind everything down for free like it is now and not before.
    p.s. come to think of it, the medbay would be a perfect block for this to do. Then it would also only work as long as the block is powered.
    This would discourage people for random placing these blocks on ore voxels to prevent normal mining. but then again if it is a small beacon then this would hinder normal mining to an absolute minium...
     
  22. rexxar Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,530
    It's pvp when both players are actually fighting. Otherwise you're just being a dick.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  23. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    Can fully agree on that one also.
    perhaps something of a life detector wich can only detects online engineers?
    and off course not on extreme long ranges so you can still hide in your base you build in the middle of nowhere...
    This way you are less likly to find a hidden offline or online base but will more easily find an online player who is out there exploring or mining.
    Would create a bigger need to arm your miner when you could be easier to find when you are online.

    with this method you can still create an offshore base where you storage your important stuff while making a small base to collect resources.
    This would also create a need for transporting ships to transport larger quantities from your collecting bases to your hidden base.
    This would offcourse only work with asteroid clusters with lot's of ores instead of the maps where every now and then an asteroid appears...
     
  24. SchmoJoe Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    36
  25. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    Something like this could indeed be a solution for space engineers to have a real pvp experience without just salvagers who take a base when someone is offline.
    Altough it must also not be a way of: "oh no i'm under attack, il go offline so they can't take my base"...
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  26. SchmoJoe Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    36
    Yep, it would have to have a limit that you can't use it if any unfriendly players are within view distance or something like that.
     
  27. zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    742
    to limit effectiveness of "panic disconnect" they could implement an EVE style "as a consequence of a recent conflict with another capsuleer engineer, your ship will remain in space after logging off for <countdowntimeremaining>"
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
  28. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    348
    This game really doesn't need to encourage more turtling and hermit like behaviour If you want to live the life of a hermit away from other people stick to single player. Otherwise accept people are going to want to fight you in a PVP environment.

    The logic of some players in this game is quite incredible. You spend hours building some colossal "battleship"armed with turrets and the like that lags servers and then what you park it hidden away in space as some kind of vanity object to stare at? Very strange.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 4
  29. zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    742
    it would be fun to use a ship with some work in an actual battle. it is not fun,however,to come online and find someone beat you easily while you had 0 chance to fight back.(if servers had more players perhaps that would be understandable as a duty of your faction to defend their stuff, but servers in this game are not to that scale yet and lag hard even with stuff disabled at the scale they do run at). active players have an advantage over players who are not online,so if there's no maneuvering,jumping,co-ordination,etc going on even well armed targets are practically sitting ducks,especially against physical projectiles.
    the consequence is that people park their stuff so far away in hopes of not being found, that they end up not actually using it anyway.
     
  30. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    for that reasen you need places of intrest that can more easily be found.
    You still hide your main base and important stuff away but you would built smal bases with defences on these points of intrests.

    The best thing i can come up with are auto miners wich generate resources over time also when you are offline but the basic of this idea needs to be made if you ever want this game to bring any good pvp gameplay.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.