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What should a Combat DLC look like?

Discussion in 'General' started by SirConnery, Dec 15, 2019.

  1. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Well, the mod is currently at version 3.0 and as far as I know was working prior to 1.192.

    IF Keen were to steal produce a similar weapon, it should have similar characteristics that can deter but not eliminate abuse

    I should point out that the hacking computer counts as a hand weapon, and it would make perfect sense for a space combat engineer to have several on hand as standard equipment.

    "Capital ship" is a blanket term we use for those giant ships we make, often to house fighters. These ships need dozens or more large vanilla engines in every direction in order to move. This was Keen's effort to keep ships small. Players have been unaware that Keen wanted to keep things small, and early on Modders were up to the task. Probably the oldest and most famous example for a capital ship engine would be the Titan by Darth Biomech. Similarly, capital gyros are just large powerful gyros capable of replacing many small (large by Keen standards ;)) gyros. Most of these are also oversized to match the ships they're made for.

    I believe SEKTAN made a walking mech that was essentially a skin. You entered it the same way you would change your suit. Only problem seemed to be getting it to use a weapon. It wasn't giant like a Gundam. More like a small mech you would find in MechWarrior. Still, we almost had something.

    Again, none of this stuff should be DLC.
     
  2. Spets Master Engineer

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    Not DLC. It should be a Major Update, Free of course.
    I would like weapons similar to The Expanse series

    Railguns, Plasma weapons, better gatling guns more like this
     
  3. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    This is what I do not understand about the gatling cannons in SE, especially the large grid ones. They have a fire rate just about the same as the original Gatling Guns of the Civil War yet are, in theory, derived from the weapon platforms shown here. It would make sense to me if they changed the models to a single barrel weapon system and increase the accuracy and range to 1200m but added actual rotary cannons.

    For dits and shiggles I modded the vanilla small grid gatling cannon to 6000 rounds per minute just to see what happened. It made a very satisfying BRRRRT!

     
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  4. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    I understand GoodAI is working on producing chatbots and the like. They claim to be working on 'general AI', but that's an almost comically unrealistic goal. Their roadmap is such naive empiricism, I have a hard time believing it's not satire.

    No, they haven't created 'general AI', and I don't think anyone will for a very long time, if ever.
     
  5. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    What's to understand? They are Gatling guns. Fire rate doesn't matter.
     
  6. Malware Master Engineer

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    Doesn't change my statement one iota, our opinion about what they're actually doing is utterly irrelevant... general AI is what they're trying to do, not game AI. The realism of that is completely beside the point.
     
  7. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    The purpose of a gatling gun is to get as many rounds downrange as possible in the shortest space of time. Those examples in the video demonstrate that, the SE ones are the opposite. A standard blowback principle weapon has a faster rate of fire than the vanilla weapons. Now unless there is a space engineer sat in the turret peddling to spin the barrels their design doesnt match the purpose.
     
  8. hippybaker Trainee Engineer

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    I would say in a video game, firing rate as rounds/minute doesn't really super matter because of balance.

    Much like the minimum wage, if you increase RPMs, you'll have to decrease damage per hit or it will be completely out of balance.

    Entire space stations with heavy armor and welder walls will be all but swiss cheese within a few seconds
     
  9. Malware Master Engineer

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    Not only balance, but performance. Every time a "bullet" is fired, calculations must be made, hit detections etc.
     
  10. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    Not gonna be a DLC pack. It will have to be a major update or else the whole community will be on fire like Brexit with the screams of P2W by the general haters. (Plus Keen did promise to not bar any gameplay crucial stuff behind pay walls with only minor whoopsies here and there)

    At best the DLC would just include a few more skins for weapons and some cooler cockpits, or some cooler guns that has identical specs.

    Weapons wise, most likely people will still use modded stuff for their unparalleled modularity and/or Darkstar core stuff once it is MP friendly. All Keen has to do is to not break anything gleefully like how they break SEToolbox and a metric ton of mods beforehand and we'll thank God for that (seriously why don't Keen just hire/offer freelance applications to major modders and have them complete the game with decent/full documentation?).

    A central heat management system is good. Prevents mindlessly huge ships being clusters of hydrogen tanks or ammo caches and something like that.

    Problem with radar is, how far can they go until they begin to choke servers and set computers on fire? That kind of stuff inherently murders sim. It wouldn't take too much of a guess to realise the 1st thing people would do is make really huge radar arrays that constantly spam signals everywhere, either in search of somebody's base to ruin or seals to club, or just for the giggles of it. Of which would easily toast servers.
     
  11. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    @TenshouYoku I don't think they (KEEN) "broke" SEToolbox rather it became more work to maintain SET than Midspace had time to devote to keep it going.
     
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  12. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    The problem with using modded weapons currently is that they are very limited in what you can do because the underlying code structure doesn't allow for much variation. For instance its currently impossible to make a modded weapon that will fire various ammo types in a reliable way. It will refuse to load a new magazine once empty. The devs need to implement new systems that would open up the game for weapons mods such as support for homing missiles and proximity fuses. Also they need to add new function blocks such as a guidance chip that allow players to make homing PMW without needing a tonne of cameras and inefficient scripts, as well as radar and some kind of warp scrambler block to counter jump drives. Finally they need to select all on that stupid shield thing they added to the game and press DEL.
     
  13. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    It's a lot like an NPC rephrasing the same thing over and over again in the background to generate the impression of life in the city...

    "I used to be an adventurer like you but then I took an arrow to the knee"
    "Nice day for fishin', ain't it?"
    "They need to counter FTL jumps and delete shields or I swear the Stormcloaks will win this war!"
     
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  14. SirConnery Apprentice Engineer

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    That would be nice. Keen should honestly hire the guy that does the Modular Encounters pack, and let him implement some decent PvE mechanics to the game (then again maybe he already works full time as a coder anyway).
     
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  15. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,188
    The purpose of any automatic weapon is to get as many rounds downrange as possible in the shortest space of time. Gatling invented a weapon that had a higher fire rate than a soldier with a rifle, and put the rounds on a belt so that it took a long time to run out of bullets. This weapon made it easier to force the indigenous population off their land here in the U.S., but when we faced a foe with a similar level of technology during WWI, the Gatling proved woefully inadequate. It was not until the Viet Nam war when more and more weapons were being mounted on aircraft and the Army fell in love with helicopters, plus the fact that we now had figured out how to make really good electric motors (those first modern Gatling guns came from General Electric) that the Gatling system became viable again. Even so, there are many single barrel systems that can match a gatling system, and there is at least one to my knowledge that can surpass one and it has no moving parts. So, by 2077 I'm thinking gatling guns are a low-budget solution for new miners seeking their fortune in the final frontier, and those badass gatlings in the video have long since been replaced with better solutions in military organizations.

    That being said, the SE gatling guns are as good as they need to be. The problem seems to be that in SE weapons don't behave as they do in other games. That is, in other games when you shoot something enough it explodes, and shooting something as large as a ship means a few minor explosions before the final Big Kaboom. SE ships, like real ships, just deteriorate under gunfire, and even warheads don't spark an explosion. Ships will only eventually explode if you load a mod for that.

    Also, if the fire rate was higher, would it matter? I mean, if it's the sound you're after they could just change that.
     
  16. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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  17. Kattla Trainee Engineer

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    If they decide to improve combat, i hope they make it worth to actually engage in. Sorta like the giftpackages that drops by now and then offering different skins, a combat update would include something worth fighting for. As for weaponry, at least a decent non-turret gun for large ships would be welcome. If i want explosions, i'd just fly toward target, place gyro or refinery, and stop. Costs 1 steel plate, and is the most bang for the buck i've found.
     
  18. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    Yes but that's an old exploit that Keen needs to urgently fix. As well as add new weapons they also need to fix old bugs that make everything else irrelevant in terms of cost effectiveness.
     
  19. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,188
    I can almost see "winning" something for successful combat in a single-player, or maybe cooperative multiplayer. Thing is, the game does not differentiate between cooperative MP and PVP MP. With PVP MP the "thing worth fighting for" is usually (apparently) complete domination of anyone and everyone on the server. Which of these were you thinking about when you made this comment?

    Not trying to start anything. It's just that sometimes we forget SE is not what people would call a "game" so expectations... differ.
     
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  20. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    Interesting idea after reading about it. I'm still leery about this kind of stuff as I see alot of potential for abuse with hacking type features. I suppose it's no different than "hacking" a block by sawing it down with the grinder but I have my reservations. While I don't mind the idea of hacking if this counts as a hand tool, imo it should only be able to hack blocks you're in direct contact with or proximity. EX: Hacking a door.

    Fair enough. I wouldn't mind something like that either.

    Gundams aren't exactly as large as they seem. I think 50 feet tall is the standard for most Gundams. I simply used a Gundam as an example of a type of walking mech.

    Agreed on implementing things like proximity fuses and better support for mod weapons etc. Wholeheartedly disagree on the Jump Drive inhibitor and Safe Zone block. Safe Zones prevent griefing and people from just nuking the NPC trading stations, and nuking people while offline. It's also NOT a shield. You also don't need a Jump Drive inhibitor, you just need to learn to play around them better instead of wanting an instant "I win" button or thinking you should be allowed to harm another person's ship for free and force unwanted pvp on them. The fact that you hate the Safe Zone so much and want it gone tells me like before, you still want to offline raid people. You're not interested pvp like you claim, you just want to grief people.

    That's not an exploit as it's intended for you to be able to build blocks out of nowhere like that. Now whether it should happen or shouldn't is another debate entirely.

    Define "something worth fighting for" because that's a very vague term. What you consider worth fighting for, what I consider worth a fight, and what the general community considers worth fighting over, may be 3 completely different things.
     
  21. Kattla Trainee Engineer

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    All of them? I left it vague on purpose to hear other opinions on what would be worth fighting for and for Keen to spend time on actually making. Personally, i would like to see unlocks of various better stuff or new armor skins but if that would be worth a combat dlc i am less sure about. I have to guess that some people are also happy with stuff that have bigger numbers, one way or another, or just the thrill of a good fight.
     
  22. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    I doubt we will ever get "better" blocks just similar blocks. May get different looking weapons one day but perform the same as what is already in-game.
     
  23. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Well, the beauty of the mod is that the Modder includes the counter. The hacking computer is a handheld device that the character carries in their personal inventory and deploys manually. More than one can be used at a time. Ships get a "firewall" computer that is a permanent part. It goes into action when it detects a hacking computer. More than one can be used.

    There's no danger of a handful of players dominating a server with a handful of hacking computers. The hacking computer is not something that can be operated remotely or placed by a drone. A player would have to sneak up to or fight their way to the ship/station in order to place and activate the device, not knowing if there is a firewall installed or not. All players on the server have access to both the hacking and firewall tech. I like that a player has to accept some personal risk in order to use the device, as opposed to sitting safely away and ruining someone's day, "at the push of a button." On the other hand, players that install a firewall (or two ;)) can enjoy an automatic response to a hack attempt and have a chance to mount a counterattack. How many other weapons supply a counter? I don't see any risk of abuse as long as both devices are available to everyone.

    That, however, is why it can't be DLC.
     
  24. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    I wasn't meaning a full comprehensive list, just a few examples of possible stuff that would be considered "worth fighting for". Reason being is that your definition of something worth fighting over, and my definition, may be 2 completely different things. I don't usually care about pure cosmetic stuff so unless it's something that lets me sci-fi my ship up more or something along those lines, I'm probably not going to care about it. For that matter I would rather just give them cash straight out for said sci-fi skins. I'm not opposed to earning items but I don't see having to fight a bunch of stuff for just a skin to be really worth while. And if that fighting involves pvp, then yeah that's one thing I won't be doing because I generally despise pvp, especially forced pvp. Far as i'm concerned forced pvp is a cancer that needs to be eradicated from online gaming entirely. But that's another can of worms entirely. If this is something such as major resource caches or similar then perhaps I would fight for it. If I'm going to risk my ship and potentially my life as a result, then I would need to know the potential payoff is worth the potential investment required, and so far I just don't see it.

    They could do a minor buff to certain blocks such as 2-5% better stats. Not enough to be completely broken, but still a minor buff that could be worth going after. EX: a 5% buff to refineries and/or assemblers if a special combat only part is used in construction of those refineries and/or assemblers. Make the plans to craft that part obtainable from pirates or such. just a few examples off the top of my head they could do. I don't think it will ever happen either but just a thought assuming they did want to do it. They could do a DLC or something like that with blocks that have a slight 2-5% increase in stats vs the standard blocks, but more than 5% would be too overpowered.

    I do agree the modder deserves props for actually including a counter to balance out the mod. If you're saying something like that mod would be worth considering then I'm going to take your word for it. While we may disagree on other areas, you appreciate good work like I do. I guess the big thing for me would be in the balancing. How long does it take per hack attempt if only one scanner is being used and no firewall is present, and that sort of thing. I'm always cautious around features like this that can allow for hijacking and/or theft of items from others. Glad to know it can't be operated remotely so that dispels that particular concern.

    I would say it's the current convention of rules Keen has for DLC as to why something like said mod wouldn't work for DLC vs the mod itself. If such a feature like that were to exist, and people could at least use/interact with such items, or have their friends place the block and weld it up for them that sort of thing, then it could be a DLC. I'm probably not explaining that portion too well but I'm assuming you get what I'm trying to say.
     
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  25. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm not familiar with the mod but if all you have to do to stop your ship getting hacked is to build a block on your ship then it sounds like it would be pretty useless since just about everyone would put the mandatory counter on their ship.
     
  26. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,663
    That is not the problem here. The mass of that single-sheet block is. This is most definitely one of the bigger exploits out there for general gameplay today and something Keen must fix.
    Unless you can find and take out the counter block. Then that's the only block(s) you'd need to destroy, then you can take the rest of the ship relatively intact. Seems quite reasonable to me. Or - even - still too unbalanced in favor of the pirate.
     
  27. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    It's also why there is no point anymore to making a PMW's, completely outclasses buy 1 steel plate bombs. It's a shame really.
    Unless you can find and take out the counter block. Then that's the only block(s) you'd need to destroy, then you can take the rest of the ship relatively intact. Seems quite reasonable to me. Or - even - still too unbalanced in favor of the pirate.[/QUOTE]
    The thing is if you can get that close to a ship then you just as easily grind it to claim it instead of hacking it. I guess there would be niche applications such as if the ship is moving but overall it doesn't seem like it would add anything really new to the gameplay. That said if scripts can interact with it, it could be interesting..
     
  28. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    You can utilize more than one firewall block at once and more than one "hack" scanner at once. It becomes a game of cat and mouse of who was better prepared resource wise. If 2 scanners are active that's 2 hack attempts vs the one firewall.

    The thing is if you can get that close to a ship then you just as easily grind it to claim it instead of hacking it. I guess there would be niche applications such as if the ship is moving but overall it doesn't seem like it would add anything really new to the gameplay. That said if scripts can interact with it, it could be interesting..[/QUOTE]

    This gives you motivation to actually plan out attacks vs folks who will simply fly in guns blazing. much like any hack attempt in real life you're going to want to knock out the firewall first, or circumvent it in some way. If you've already got boarders on the ship, then I dare say it won't be as simple as you think to simply destroy the firewall block.

    That's a balancing issue, not an exploit. I expect a steel plate like those in game to be able to do damage when they hit something at full speed. The issue is how much damage that plate should cause when it actually smacks the other blocks. Flinging those objects like kinetic missiles SHOULD be able to do a fair amount of damage to something, but should not be able to do the same amount of damage as something with 40 times the mass or so on. Thus balancing issue.
     
  29. Malware Master Engineer

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    Hehe. I suggest you try it, figure out what's actually going on here. ;) Trust me. This is far more than a mere balancing issue. Hint: It's not just a single steel plate's worth of mass...
     
  30. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    Agreed with gat turrets not really required to brrrrrt as if in real life. There's a ton of things in games that doesn't follow reality anyway and actual fire rate can just be one of these things for the sake of gameplay and performance.

    The problem of SE pvp is still the good ol' "general lack of direction outside of blowing the literal crap of everybody when they are offline". Safe zones help but only a bit in combatting offline raiding (aka base rape).
    What SE pvp really needs is some more rules rather than aimless vandalism against other hapless targets.