Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

What to do about us DX9 users? With us, breaking up with us? Whats the story?

Discussion in 'General' started by andrew.evins, Nov 13, 2015.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. WereBottle Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    398
    Like I said though, if a computers running a Dx9-10 graphics card then it's probably going to be pretty old and a lot of other components are going to have to be upgraded if you want to continue using it for gaming. Since a graphics card and processor are the biggest expenses then it's false economy to just buy a slightly better graphics card capable of running Dx11 and not just saving up for a while and getting a whole system upgrade that will be future proof for at least a couple of years, (especially with Dx12 on the horizon) and for people on a laptop that's not really an option anyway. (some people move a lot or use their computer in work/university so for those people a desktop isn't an option)

    My current laptop runs Dx9 space engineers stuff without difficulty, unless I build massive ships. So I'll just stay with that while I save up for a decent gaming desktop (a £600-£700 machine will probably take me about 5 months to save up for but it should last another 5 years)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. mdenz3 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    125
    It would have been nice if they had given some forewarning. They must have known for some time DX9 just wasn't going to hack it, why keep stringing those folks along?


    Also, when the first started they must have known it would take ~2 to be close to release, why eve worry about 8 year old (at the time) tech? Seems they should have been DX11 only from day one.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Barfbag Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    86
    Ok....... look, it sucks that it doesn't work for DX9 but what else are we supposed to say? A developer shouldn't have to cling to the past to cater to those that refuse to upgrade their hardware that is 8 years old. I hate games like that, Call of duty, Madden, and other games like that use engines that are years old because 1) its cheaper to regurgitate the same thing year after year and 2) its less buggy since they have spent years fixing them. The downside is there is no innovation, no improvement to visuals, and very little improvements to gameplay.

    Massive innovations require good hardware. Remember Crysis, it set the bar as to what FPS'ers should look like and if you wanted to experience it, you needed top end hardware. What Keen is doing has never been done before on this scale. It's going to require higher end hardware to handle it, especially at this phase where optimizations aren't there. (optimization is during the Beta phase, were in Alpha)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. WereBottle Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    398
    To be fair I imagine they thought they'd be released by now. I mean they were not even planning on adding planets originally and my Dx9 (well Dx10 really) laptop can still run the game alright.
     
  5. Thedrelle Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    15
    I agree a little more forewarning would have been good, but it would not change he fundamental truth that planets WILL NOT work without a DX11 System.

    I do not agree that they should have limited the game to DX11 from the beginning. it works fine without planets on DX9, and there is no reason to alienate a portion of their potential fan-base any more than they have to.
     
  6. Barfbag Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    86
    I may be wrong but I think the only reason they started with DX9 was because it was easier to get some of their ideas out on that platform then migrate to DX11. I may be completely wrong though.
     
  7. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    You show me your source that they deliberately withheld the information to... whatever withholding the information could get them, and I'll show you my source that they didn't.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    We have already given them a source. Every one of us who tinkered with the source while it still has planets knows it had an attempt at a DX9 version.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    Then I have to assert that Keen has demonstrated a willingness to bend over backwards into a pretzel in order to please its fans. I submit that until the last moment, and by that I mean perhaps the day they posted the countdown, they thought they could do it. They might still think they can and may still try for a while.

    Before the game supported DX11 I didn't know DX11 from DX0, or care. Usually game requirements consists of clock speed and minimum ram. I usually figure if my machine meets just the minimum requirements the game will run like crap if at all. It's only been the last couple years or so that I really started paying attention to the video card, and that's because my son bought Skyrim.

    Which reminds me, after purchasing Skyrim he knew he needed a better machine and made the decision to buy a motherboard designed for gaming. I just have to say gaming motherboards are fantastic. They are built to be about as future-proof as possible and you get so much control and information about what's going on. It's also nice to know that if he decides to get an i7 I can get his i5. The thing is if you like playing feature-rich games you should not kid yourself about playing them on a laptop or budget computer. You need current-gen CPU, video card, and RAM, and a motherboard that can handle those well and let you use next-gen stuff when it comes. The people here that are saying "well, just upgrade" are the people that are looking at maybe spending $150US to do so because everything else about their computer will still work, and they probably figured this would happen anyway.

    I'm waiting to see how many cores they are going to be able to fit on a single chip. Currently it's, what, six? That means 4 core CPU will probably be the minimum certainly by this time next year. Start saving for that new mobo now.
     
  10. Running Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    60
    Even worse... if your PSU can't hack it... you might very well run into unexplained freezes, reboots etc.
    a lot of people will then examine almost every component in their PC except for the PSU.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. D3Seeker Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    85
    I was building a pc anyway. Collecting parts has just gone into MASSIVE overtime.

    DX9 is slowly being abandoned anyway in the grand scheme of game developement the way I see it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. cedi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    307
    You can already buy an octacore for ~225$.
     
  13. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    What socket does that need?
     
  14. cedi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    307
    AM3+
     
  15. a2457 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,366
    AM3+ socket, but i might not go for thatone, rther wait out a Zen based cpu.
    i have the little sister of this cpu with 6 cores.
    not a bas cpu at all, specially if overclock is accounted.
    i bought it after xmas pricedrop shoppings, so around january this year.
    for something like 100 usd worth.
    shops tend to stockpile stuff for the xmas shopping madness, and after that is over some shops are left with stuff they could not sell.
    and try to get rid of it, for lunatic prices.
    the motherboard i bought is a gigabyte brand one with the 970 chipset, allso was on sale at a different shop for under 100 usd worth.

    actually after bit of fiddling with this and that..

    laterZ on i allso managed to get a quite decent gpu for cheap too.
    but thatone needed some repairs, got some soldering on it and bit of wizzardy, but in the end this system upgrade (gpu, cpu, mobo, memory) did not cost a lot, and its still kicking surprisingly well.
    this xmas i'm gona shoot for an r9 380 radeon, and next year i gona shoot for an amd ZEN based cpu and an socket AM4 mobo and ddr4 memory.
    I'm a cheap guy when it comes to computers, i just.. better like to not spend a lot.
    at this moment, if i would have to purchase the SAME rig, and from brand new components, it would cost more than i bough it for about 6 months ago.
    I will sell my current r9 270 radeon, for about 100 usd, i bough it for 30 used and non working.approx 150-170 usd more will get me the r9 380 card.
    not a lot of money to be honest. I hope i don't have to get a new r9 380, i might be able to get one that is faulty, and repair it.
    then it may not even require any dollars spendt.

    you may say not everyone can repair stuff down to component level, that is true. but i allso sell my outdated hardware for cheap, so if someone is going to pruchase it from me, and could not carry out the repairs, even then that person can get a soild, well working hardware for way under market price.
    i never had bleeding edge computer, surely there are many intel and amd cpus out there that are faster, but i can guarantee, the price i had to pay for this performance is far better than most.

    with all these new cards comming out , finding a good solid performer for SE and dx11 is not hard, nor expensive on the used gpu market. sometimes its just worth to walk into a shop, ask what they have at hand from previous generation of cards, and simply make your offer. you may be able to get a good discount on the item. and even trade in your current gpu for a bit of money. simular story to used console games. when its fresh and out, its 20-30 dollars here, after a few months its down to 15-20, and 2nd hand you may get it for under 10 .
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    That just means dual-core processors are history.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. mdenz3 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    125
    The PSU is the best part of my rig. :lol:
     
  18. Nobodyhasthis Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    222
    My favorite reply by NachtWolf on Marek Rosa's recent blog post to all those that get pissed off at DX11.
    When asked we Tomas how he puts such a big environment into the limits of DX11. The answer was "tricks and magic". He also left a secret joke art work in the game about how hard it was to do.
     
  19. GeekWere Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    55
    And if one does the research and tutorials. It's actually fairly simple to build it yourself. OEM's charge exorbitant prices for "Gaming" products.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. matty3d Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    20
    The less you´re able to "program" the more you need to rely on predefined and predigested object oriented languages.
    If you are able, one could program a brilliant looking game which will run on a 10 years old Hardware!
    But since we all users of predigested shit we have to rely on like C++, C# in order to achieve at least something. Pity is that almost no one is able anymore to "program" a Game, so bloatware Languages and laziness are responsible for the haste towards always new equipment.
    Yes, looking at the matter from this angle DX11 is needed, but in 2 years when SE is still in early access and the community again demanding new stuff, will DX11 be powerful enough?

    "When asked we Tomas how he puts such a big environment into the limits of DX11. The answer was "tricks and magic". He also left a secret joke art work in the game about how hard it was to do."

    Reading this comment leaves me more worried that this game will be an endless disaster and bughole!

    Seriously we are not even in alpha state and we have to do "tricks and magic" already.
    Is this the modern approach towards " We are going to make a Game" whereby it is decided on the run how and when ?
    To me it looks more like Keen is changing course as they see fit, not a professional approach in my opinion, and the state of this "early access" Game seems to proves me right.
    my 2 cent
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. blizzerd Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    478
    you can just install 2003 kernel approved drivers, i think most of XP and even some VISTA drivers work
     
  22. mze9412 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    791
    Yes, you can, but back when it was released it was completely useless for real gaming ;) And now, why would anyone still use XP? o_O
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. blizzerd Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    478
    whoa there buddy, you couldn’t be more wrong... There is nothing bloat ware to space engineers and 5 to 10 years ago a game like space engineers was just not technologically possible...
    Also languages now are by far as performant as they have ever been, and programming quality is actually standardised better now then last year, or 15 years ago...

    You could literally not be more wrong, this argument comes up a couple times with "procedurally generated" graphics too but is just wrong... those procedural graphics need to be calculated too, and storing them in memory is just far faster and efficient for games that are heavy on graphics... the only reason they did it that way back then was because storage media were slow and expensive. YES procedural graphics have their place, YES they can be an awesome tool for an awesome game (think spore, even if the gameplay was a bit meh, the graphics were phenomenal in its use of procedurally generated content) but you cant claim that if programmers would just program space engineers like spore or like the original privateer that suddenly space engineers would run "as is" on a toaster... it wont and it would actually run worse, since today we have really cheap and efficient graphics calculators (aka GPU's, your graphics card...) while "back then" compared to GPU's you had far more powerful cpu processors by comparisment, and games made good use of that... once storage media became cheaper and larger there was no need anymore for beastly cpu's and gpu's became more important for games.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, yes it will, it has everything keen could need for the next 5 years minimum IMO.

    Direct X 9 came out in december 19, 2002, it was the main DirectX version for Windows XP... thats almost 13 years ago and the fact anyone has a card only supporting Dx9 means they haven’t bought a new "budget" GPU card in lets say over 7 years, if they bought top end they would have had to buy at least 8 to 9 years ago.

    For laptops you have an excuse, since sometimes people do get ripped off and very old stock cards are installed, but still... why game on a stock gpu laptop at least 5 years old

    The difference between Dx9 and 10 is massive, since it was a big shift in focus. I cant speak for Keen but i highly doubt we will ever see a Direct X support drop for space engineers, since Keen was already swimming against the flow by supporting Dx9
    Programming is nothing but tricks and magic... its the nature of the game making something look good and unique when you are threading on virgin ground... this is also why we need all of Dx10's trick box
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. blizzerd Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    478
    Because it still is the most stable OS out there, even if it might not be the securest or best preforming. (more stable then linux whaaaaaat :p)

    Also a lot of companies had very complex and specific software made for them during the software boom and bust that works on XP and only on XP.
    They would not be able to afford having to remake that software, so they run it on XP systems inside a secure network. This is why so many companies still use XP mainly... compatibility issues and "it works, and keeps working without cost"
     
  25. Iamus Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    313
    Having used the 64 bit version of XP, it didn't feel nearly as stable as the 32 bit build of XP.
     
  26. blizzerd Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    478
    Thats a very nieche version made specifically for the itanium architecture though, although i have no experience with it i can understand it being not as stable as some other versions because of that.

    natively, windows XP did not support 64 bit
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. GSHgunner Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    1
    While it is a shame for people who use DX9 that the game isn't gonna be supporting them much longer, I do understand why it is happening, technology moves on very quickly, and DX9 is old now, heck even DX11 is starting to get old, and for games to improve, it's best for them that they don't use old tech if they want to get better and improve for gamers to enjoy.
     
  28. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    I used to have DirectX 5. Then upgraded to 6.. then 7 (back in those days, games upgraded you to the one you needed). Once I had an XP based system I had 8, then 9. With Vista came 10 and 11 with windows 10. If you game for a minute, you'll see yourself changing versions, hardware, and OS's many times over. As I've said before, PC gaming isn't a cheap hobby. Those people on budgets (and limited knowledge, who don't want to learn) need to stick to consoles.

    Its like owning a car that takes you from point A to B. You don't use your daily commuter in racing (though you could use your racing rig in a daily commute), the performance isn't going to be there. And if you don't do your own maintenance.. then paying someone to do it will be very expensive.

    They don't call it the PC Master Gaming Race for nothing. There's a little more to it than just picking up a prebuilt from best buy and hoping it works. I feel bad for those kids who get PCs or Laptops bought for them for school work. Most times the school or parents that do it get the cheapest on the market and.. well you can't game in that too well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  29. mze9412 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    791
    I mean at home, for gaming, not for companies. Some airport in France just had an issue because the system for landing with fog and low clouds still runs in Windows 3.1 ;)
     
  30. jaumem9 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    35
    #DirectX11MasterRace (and 12 soon)
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.