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Why avoid extra customers by not making software for Linux?

Discussion in 'General' started by birgersp, Jul 23, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Draygo Senior Engineer

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    You are not going to get single digit with the ram and CPU requirements for se. Tens sure, single no.
     
  2. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Good. I like sparking debate.

    See, what I was getting at is that the average consumer buys a computer from a store, and those stores, online or brick-and-mortar, usually sell the PC with the OS pre-installed, because the customer does not want to deal with that, and is probably unaware of Linux. People that are experienced with computers and seeking the Linux alternative will not find the PC they're looking for in Walmart. They have to find a repair shop that sells PC components or shop for components online and build something (that's how I do it). The Dell server I got had no OS on it, but it wasn't difficult to download Ubuntu to a flash drive on another computer. Wasn't arguing about the usefulness of blank PCs. I was stating that you can't get a blank PC at Walmart. Buying a PC with a pre-installed OS makes it less likely that you would replace that OS, therefore the installed OS always wins.

    This isn't about me.

    Yes, because as consumers we should always be sensitive to how much it costs the manufacturer to make their product, although generally we don't care and buy what's best if we can afford it and buy the cheapest if we can't. It's always up to the manufacturer to determine what's worth the cost, and the one's that go the extra mile generally do better.

    Most people don't know that Linux is free. If they did, they would care. The one's that do probably have a Windows machine because they couldn't buy a blank machine in a store.

    They're both the same, but one is free.

    Again, this isn't about me, and as a former union president I take a dim view of people not getting paid for their work. You have obviously mistaken me for someone else.

    As someone who started using a PC back in 1977 before DOS, and having experienced the evolution of DOS into Windows, I can't bring myself to call Windows "perfectly fine". It allows people to use their computers the Microsoft way, and frankly I'm tired of Microsoft asking me if I'm sure I want to do something.

    Yes, Microsoft made sure it's readily available so that you wouldn't care to use something else. It's not popular because it's good. It's popular because businesses can just buy bulk licenses so they get it cheaper, and people that use it at work will likely use it at home. Apple computers lingered because they practically (and sometimes actually) gave away computers to school districts so that the kids would get used to Apple computers and make mom and dad get one for the house. It's not quality. It's marketing.

    I wasn't talking about your mum or your dad, nor was I stating my vision. I was stating the consensus of people at that time.

    And when did I say I expected developers to do this for me? I said you should do it, for your own sake. It's entirely up to you, though.

    Yes it is, and what do you sound like?

    I can get good software. Only thing that I can't get that I want is Space Engineers.

    I don't know how you make or spend your money. If it's a hardship for you then by all means don't do it. I think the one's that can afford it should.

    No, it's my lack of programming skill, which I am currently endeavoring to upgrade. If, in fact, the only way to get SE on a Linux desktop is to write my own code, I'm up for that. That's the thing about Linux (and before that, DOS). People that use it usually aren't afraid to roll up their sleeves and get under the hood. My programming skills atrophied because by 1980 it was easier to buy a program than to write one. I never saw that as a good thing.

    Nah, you just completely misunderstood.

    If I believed that I would have never moved to Alaska.

    Me. I would love the chance to live and work in space. But then, I also like going out on limbs. You should just stay where it's safe.

    It's not me making you look bad, and I know how to spell spoiled.

    You know, I still feel the way I do about how the consumer PC industry went down, but the 80's were heady times and the computer industry was fertile ground. Just before he gave up the reins, Robert Watson (founder of IBM) said that one day there would be just three computers in the world. I read that quote in a book in 1986 and I thought, "no way that'll ever happen." Now I'm not so sure.

    Windows and Linux will probably be indistinguishable in a few short years, so this is a moot argument. I do think programming should be taught in elementary school because it's an ordered approach to problem solving and a good skill to grow up with. I always thought programming was easy and fun, therefore I assumed that everyone would pick it up and write their own stuff. Apparently I was mistaken. Things didn't turn out the way I thought they would. Not the first time that ever happened.It's OK, though. Life is short, and I have limbs to climb out on.
     
  3. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]

    Come on now... stop forcing misplaced arguments to discredit Linux...

    RTL8139 is almost standard in EVERY distribution, even Kurumin 7, back in the day, had it. Most common devices have drivers built-in distributions standard drivers. So... why bother recompiling the driver? Use the Distro's repository for God sake!

    Do you download source code for Windows drivers? No, you download binaries already compiled and ready to setup. Same as Ubuntu, Red Hat, OPEN Suse, CentOS, FreeBSD, Debian, so on... all major distros have their repository with drivers ready, in fact, most common used applications are there too. Ubuntu, CentOS and Debian even have GUI "control panels" for the users to install apps. Sure the apps are different from Windows, but that's not an excuse. If you migrate to iOS you would face the same difference in apps.

    If you want to compile everything and customize the distro, that's YOUR CHOICE, if things get confusing or hard, it's your job to learn.
     
  4. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    I agree here.

    Lenovo, Dell, etc... all of them come with Windows OEM licenses. Sure Dell offered some Notebook and PCs from the Inspiron and Vostro series, but it was for a short time and the product was actually more expensive than the same model with a Windows OEM. But that's Microsoft cornering the market, they manipulated the entire landscape with the idiotic UEFI.

    Actually, people that are Power User and/or technicians will buy whatever hardware they want and install the OS they want. It's the "common" user the target here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  5. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    You all are still missing a big point here.

    How many people are unable to play SE because it isn't on Linux? How many? Give me a best guess. 100? Maybe a 1000? Lets go with a 1000 (let's be generous). It would net Keen a whopping $25,000 - 30% steam cut = $17,500 (minus taxes). Now.. how much time would it take to develop that? X months * Y expenses each month has to = less than $17,500 to make it worth the while.

    Want to know why it hasn't happened? Because its not worth it.

    You can argue the merits of linux, the deplorable stuff Microsoft has done. You can go on and on about software social justice all day long. None of it matters.

    Want to make it matter? Take the source code. Port it yourself. And distribute it. Stick it to Microsoft. Be the hero. Bet it won't happen though.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    not true, did doublechack, there is no support even in centos for the 8139D cards.
    eth0: RTL8139 Interrupt line blocked, status ffff
    eth0: PCI Bus Error 2900007

    that is all you can get.
    last night i went for sure and did jump on irc to ask if i'm doing something wrong or what.
    i was told the kernel does have a driver, that does not work, and never did.
    the only solution is to complie one on your own.

    but let us assume its fixed, there are still pretty mutch a lot of hardware out there that have zero possible way to get working under *nix.
    witch is interesting as a dead rat.
    what is interesting, is that linux does not have any share in the home desktop pc os market.
    and there for , mostly software is not developed for *nix.
    plain simple.
    lack of support for many hardware, lack os software support, and lack of support for linux it self yelds low share of the market, and makes *nix to be not favoured as a target platform.
    nothing we can do about it.
    the situation is the same with server stuff, that market is dominated by *nix.
     
  7. mze9412 Junior Engineer

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    With .Net you never care about the normal WinAPI. The .Net API is very clean and clear :)
     
  8. Draygo Senior Engineer

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    UEFI was not invented by MS and it is not idiotic.
     
  9. DarthViper3k Apprentice Engineer

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    Which is ironic as MS decided to officially retire .Net as of Win10
     
  10. mze9412 Junior Engineer

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    They did not, otherwise all the development ongoing with .Net would be stupid (.Net Core 5, Cordova, ASP.Net MVC 6, etc.). Universal apps are also .Net based. But if you are so sure, how about some offical MS post saying it is retired? Oh right, there is none :)
     
  11. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    okay, and people looking for a bigmack won't find it at burgerking.
    got news, if you just wanted to purchase some potatoes, and some onoins, bacon, carrots and so on, you won't find them at KFC , McDonalds, Burgerking.

    If yo want to have a custom computer cuz You don't like the ones you can get at wallrat, ot other large shops..
    then you just have to oreer it online, most computer specific stores will assemble what you need, help you choose what you need, and will install any os you like.

    no one is limited in obitaining a computer with no os installed at all.
    people just simply don't choose *nix.
     
  12. DarthViper3k Apprentice Engineer

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    So instead of politely mentioning that the new UAP API introduced with Win10 was .net based you decided to be an ass?
    That makes a lot of sense.

    For the record just 5min of searching on google I can find numerous articles from Microsoft, on their dev pages, tech sites, etc where MS themselves are talking about moving everything to the new API platform. The whole point of the new UAP API was to consolidate all the different libraries out there into a single API.
    Ironically... you know what I can't find? Anything that says UAP is based on .Net.

    Stop being an ass about it.
     
  13. Zyfe Trainee Engineer

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    64
    And yet none of that matters at all, because SE is written in C#.


    This thread serves absolutely no purpose. They haven't (and may never) port to linux because:
    A) it takes time
    B) time costs money
    C) the payout isn't worth the time + money (yet)

    Maybe at some point when SE is closer to being done, and they have more spare time for less important things like porting to an OS that most people who play games regularly don't use, then they will do so. Until then, realize why they aren't doing it yet. As much as you like Linux and hate Windows, nearly everyone has Windows. It's a priority + money thing.
     
  14. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    sounds interesting, can you link here an official article about .net retirement ?
     
  15. DarthViper3k Apprentice Engineer

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    The blog post that talked about .Net being dropped in favor of the new Win10 UWP (Universal Windows Platform) was posted inside the Windows Insider Hub during the Win10 beta. Back around feburary(-ish) - march(-ish) anybody using the beta had to manually install their .Net updates... According to the blog post that was intentional. Since then they added .Net to the Win10 install. Windows Insiders gave MS a ton of backlash for it.... so I think they're trying this migrate deal first where .Net is folded into the new API library... and they just don't have to continue development of the older libraries.

    When Win10 went live they purged the old insider hub so I can't find that specific old blog post...
    However... what I can find for you are numerous articles from MS for migrating from older .Net builds to the new .Net Core 5 (or UWP). As with anything else it is not yet retired.. but its being retired and MS is putting a lot into this new UWP framework they're developing.
    Makes sense giving they're basically betting everything on Win10's success.

    With the exception of the newer definitions of .Net launching along side Win10(edit: rather launched as a component of Win10. Which would be .Net 4.6 and .Net Core 5 (which again is UWP))... all prior .Net frameworks appear to be retiring beginning of 2016. They'll still be supported per the usual support cycle for a few years though so developers are safe for the time being.
    However... the new .Net they've launched appears to be a fold into their new UWP.... and they've stated specifically that they're no longer going to be updating .Net independently.
    Win10 just launched.... In the coming months it's likely we'll see more details about UWP.

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/search?sort=pn&alpha=.net framework
    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/framework_faq (This details retirement dates)
    https://blogs.windows.com/buildinga...ook-at-the-windows-10-universal-app-platform/
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/apps/dn894631.aspx
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/vstudio/ms171868.aspx
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/dn894631.aspx
    https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2015/04/30/a-deeper-dive-into-the-universal-windows-platform/
    https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/3294/need-to-know-universal-windows-platform
    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2015/07/28/net-networking-apis-for-uwp-apps.aspx
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Mt148501.aspx
    https://blogs.windows.com/buildinga...the-universal-windows-platform-at-build-2015/
     
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Well, I don't understand the attitude, but I'll try to make my point using smaller words.

    The average person is not looking for a blank PC. PC makers market their PC's with the OS installed, and that OS is typically Windows. If you were born yesterday you would assume that PCs come with Windows, and you are not aware that Linux exists. Until Red Hat came out in the early 90's even I did not know Linux existed. This was right after the OS2/OS2 Warp fiasco.

    Until the early 80's your basic choices for consumer grade PCs were Radio Shack and Apple. Tandy was making a killing and IBM took notice. IBM needed an OS and they called the guy that made CP/M, considered by many programmers at the time to be a superior OS. The guy skipped the meeting, so IBM called Gates. IBM made Microsoft DOS the industry standard and CP/M vanished. For the last 30 years the average person has been lead to believe that a PC comes with the OS installed, and that OS is Windows. It's not a better OS. It just has a ginormous marketing staff. Linux has no staff.

    Now, if the average person could walk into Walmart and buy a blank PC, and their choice for an OS was 200 bucks for Windows or 0 bucks for Linux, which one would they buy? No, not all popular programs run on Linux. However there are programs that do work out there that are just as good as Excel and Word, for example. The guy that started this thread was simply wondering why SE doesn't work on a free OS. Despite what you propose, it's most likely that the issue is DirectX and less about how hard it is, since Keen pays their staff to do what they're told.

    But, as I also keep saying, MacOS is Unix, Windows is going open source, and eventually it won't matter what your computing device is running. I understand the reason Keen won't port SE to Linux. I just think it's unfortunate, because Linux is free. Even so, if Keen did a 180 today and started working on the port, by the time they finished it wouldn't matter. Therefore, there's no need to get upset and be rude. It just doesn't matter. As it is, PCs are already in trouble. They're too much work. People like tablets. Store your stuff in the cloud. No programs. Apps.

    Or consoles/console-like devices (Steambox).
     
  17. cswilson Trainee Engineer

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    as a user of many operating systems over the years, and even currently, Linux has come a long way and is great for servers, depending on what you want to do with them, but I still prefer windows for desktop and windows/unix for servers. Thou I do run some Linux servers, and I guess technically VMware ESXI is Linux
    at home I have 2 servers that run Ubuntu 12.04 server(both are vm's), 2 snap servers (4500 and a 520) that run SnapOS(aka guardianOS , which is a BSD dirivitive of Quantium Linux), a solaris 10 box, VMware esxi cluster of 2 servers, and a windows 2012r2 box, there is even a netware 4.11 box as well lol.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    1,018
    It wasn't about SE in particular, but software development in general as a response to the Linux/Windows prevalence debate. Windows is closed source and obfuscated, and you have to rely on whatever documentation they decide to give you. In Linux you have the benefit of checking what is going on under the hood.

    If we're talking about SE, it comes down to DirectX vs OpenGL and .Net vs Mono.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  19. mze9412 Junior Engineer

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    And UAP Apps are usually developed with C# and XAML and all the technologies that are based on .Net :) You can go the Javascript/HTML5 way for apps if you want to but to be honest, HTML is still a bit PITA with layouting and CSS stuff -.-
     
  20. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    Well, it is idiotic. It doesn't offer a good security measure as it proposes. Only caused problems in the market, plain and simple, Ubuntu and Debian were kept from obtaining the UEFI "keys" for a while... in that mean time users were left with a lot of BIOS locked in UEFI, with built-in keys for Windows 8. That's the reality of it.

    Just a quick reference on the "security" side of things: https://github.com/lfit/itpol/blob/master/linux-workstation-security.md

    That's a "checklist" suggestion for SysAdmins. You'll notice they actually recommend keeping the Secure Boot enabled, but with reservations and more, recommending other technologies with greater efficiency. Yes, the "front" developer of the UEFI 1.10 wasn't Microsoft, but Intel... guess who is one of the leaders of the "Unified EFI Forum"? Yes Microsoft.

    This is not a conspiracy theory, when vendors started selling devices with these new UEFI BIOS, Microsoft was the first to obtain the "key" to validate it's boot process. The first Linux distro to obtain was Ubuntu, many months later... Even with Debian and Ubuntu together it was a real pain to obtain. While Microsoft was profiting for it's exclusivity on PCs and Notebooks.

    One other terrible fact: Some product lines from Dell, Lenovo, Vaio and Samsung were sold with Windows Key attached to the BIOS. If you want to buy a retail box of Windows 8.1 Pro and "format" your device with it... good luck! This was changed eventually. But yes, I work with IT, we dealt with these problems first hand.
     
  21. JTConsortium Apprentice Engineer

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    I've been "semi actively" following ReactOS nearly its entire life because I love their concept but at the rate they're going with it, Windows will be a long obsolete OS and I'll be dead by the time they reach an "RC1" if you ask me. It has been in "development" for nearly 20 years now and still has lightyearrs to go to even be remotely considered as a viable OS. It still doesn't run on about 99% of the hardware out there, including any multi-core or 64bit CPUs. No multi-core support yet? Seriously? How long have multi-core CPUs been around now?

    It also has very limited network support and zero wifi support so far. I've only been able to get it to boot and run on 1 of about 12 machines I've tried it on and, that was an old Dell D810 laptop just this past Monday AAMOF.!
     
  22. Draygo Senior Engineer

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    Product key loaded into bios is not a bad thing especially for laptops as users tend to rub off the product key to an unreadable state. For modern uefi laptops I could install win 8 or 8.1 and recover the product key post install. If you lost your hd with win 7 or prior you were sol if your key wasn't readable and the manufacturer wouldn't help ya. It also does not prevent you from installing another OS.

    Plus most motherboards let you boot via legacy anyway if you needed to.

    Why wouldn't Microsoft be a big player on that forum, they are the biggest OS it would just be idiotic if they were not.

    UEFI is not a Microsoft conspiracy.
     
  23. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    my comapny owns machines that my employees use, while somehat limited, but reactos work just fine on them.
    surely it still has its problems, and development is verry slow, but heck. it may catch up with time.
    sofar for basic office stuff it does a decent job, its free, and everyone is familiar with it as its a clone of windows.
     
  24. Two Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't think there is really big market for Linux players, so porting the client to Linux might be a huge loss in the end.

    What however is a serious issue imo is that the server does not run on Linux. As a matter of fact most servers run on Linux, and the difference between renting a Linux and a MS server is about 10-15 bucks more just to have it run Windows. I am pretty sure that porting the Server to Linux would do the multiplayer part of the game a great favor.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    I've been saying that for a couple of pages. They like to ignore the business end of the ordeal however. Which is probably the likely reason it hasn't been done. In my argument I used 1000 linux players as my baseline. But judging by this thread, its actually less than a dozen, and all of them have access to windows to play SE on which makes the entire thread pretty much moot.

    But if they'd like to prove me wrong.. the source is available, they can make their own port and see how well it does. I mean the discussion of C and C+ and C# and API's and all that is prevalent in this thread so I'm going to assume these Linux experts could just port the game themselves. Obviously they are the SME in this ordeal and know more than KSH so they should.

    But they won't.

    This is the only thing everyone agrees with. And I think the cost is a little more than that, at least for the same performance. I've actually got a bit of experience with Windows Server 2008, 2012, and Small Business Server.. its a PITA to set up for a game server (sure a DS will have it set up already.. but you're going to pay for that effort) and very expensive just to purchase the software (again you're getting that cost passed on to you). Linux has the advantage of just not costing anything at all. So that savings is going to get passed along.
     
  26. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    I'm curious, approximately how much would it cost Keen Software House to port Space Engineers to Linux? Not asking if it's worth it. Just wondering how much.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Two Apprentice Engineer

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    I can just do a sophisticated guess. For once the entire 3D engine would have to be changed to use OpenGL (no DX on Linux). Let's assume the engine is well written and the programmer has a good idea what he/she is doing, then - under these good conditions - it would take about 8-12 month for a single person to adapt the 3D part to Linux, which - considering an average sallary - would cost about 30k-50k for that part alone.

    So even under good conditions (and judging from the bugs we see every day that is actually not the case), about 10k-20k >new< people need to buy the game on Linux to just cover the expenses. Realistically I think it will be at least twice the cost, especially if you consider maintenance and porting issues that will for sure arise sooner or later.
     
  28. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    I bolded the part that is the most important. When I gave my estimate earlier in the thread, I said 1000 as being generous. Remember each sale on steam gets 30% taken out to Valve to publish it (actually quite a good deal, as publishing can be quite pricey.. cheaper than the 90s, but bandwidth is at a premium as always).

    Two only covers the initial cost. There's more costs when new updates go through. Now instead of developing on just Windows and figuring out all the bugs there, you have to devote time and resources (manhours, power consumption, ect) to fixing the bugs on Linux. Some games do this easily. Browser games, mobile games, and such are easy to maintain cross platform. Its also why Java is (or was) popular. 3d games not so much. But we can say that's covered by new users as time goes on, just like it works with Windows.

    But ask this question. Is there enough non-Windows using Linux users out there biting at the bits to buy SE for Linux? The answer I'm going with until proven otherwise is No. The Linux users that want to play SE are playing SE on Windows already. As I said, I was being generous with the 1000 user estimate. I'm willing to say the number is far less than that. Probably less than 100.

    Linux diehards are not so loyal as they make you think. They decry windows all the time. But everyone of them has a Windows machine to play their games on. They may not like it, but they've got it.

    And its for that reason my own project that I'm directing will stay on Windows. This isn't 1990 where some houses have a SNES and some have a Genesis. Everyone's got a Windows box, or at the very least a means to virtualize or emulate it.
     
  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    You keep talking about how many people will have to buy the game to cover the cost, but you don't say what the cost is. My questions was how much would it cost Keen Software House to port Space Engineers to Linux? In US Dollars, if you don't mind.
     
  30. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Two just gave you an estimate...
     
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