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Why did people rarely trade in Minecraft, and how can that be fixed in this game?

Discussion in 'General' started by BrickedKeyboard, Apr 9, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. BrickedKeyboard Apprentice Engineer

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    In Minecraft, I remember that on most servers, especially modded servers running things like Tekkit and various versions of Feed the Beast, no one ever wanted to trade. Part of the reason, I think, was that it was hard to do. You couldn't just send other players stuff with 1 click, you had to meet up somewhere (a lot of servers had /spawn so you'd meet there) and toss the items and payment on the ground. Scammers were frequently a problem. People would build trading systems, but the vanilla game didn't support them, and trade-o-mats required a lot of time and energy to set up.

    I think another reason for less trading is that the really rare resources in Minecraft, everyone was short on. For instance, on a server I played where the End was inaccessible (server admins locked it), you could never get anyone to give you Ender pearls for almost any price. With UU-matter, either you had access to almost everything, or you didn't.

    Another problem was that in Minecraft, there tended to be a few players who were super rich and didn't need to trade with anyone, and then a buncha n00bs who had nothing and thus nothing to trade.

    For those with experience in trading in Minecraft, why didn't it work?
     
  2. Maul555 Apprentice Engineer

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    Trading in this game is best at 104 m/s
     
  3. Balmung Senior Engineer

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    The Question is easy... because Minecraft was not build for Trading. Like you notice the Game must be made and balanced for that.

    At the Moment I must say SE is didn't made for Trade too.
     
  4. TungstenWall Apprentice Engineer

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    I do not think the issue was because insecure trading conditions, but rather supply and demand.
    Though a player may not have a material in their possession (inventory, chest, etc.) it may still be easily obtainable given a little effort. If you need redstone, why would you trade if you could just go/build a mine and get it yourself? AFAIK most mined materials in Minecraft (save emeralds) can be found in ANY biome. So why trade when under your base is plenty of materials?

    Now if you want more trading in SE, I would suggest making sectors in a cluster share similar common materials and rare materials. So most/all sectors would be high in Iron, and the one you are based in may have plenty of Uranium and Nickel, BUT have very little Gold and Platinum. There would still be some Gold and Platinum, but not enough for any major project, and would be spread out throughout the sector(s) in small nodes.
    Eventually you come to the point you need Gold for computers, but don't have enough. This will then force players to go out and explore. Eventually you may find a cluster with plenty of Gold, BUT owned by another faction. Because of the time and effort needed to build things in SE, most players may prefer trading. Availability of resources could have an effect on ship and station design. If locals in the Gold sector put lots of solar panels on everything, it may be a clue that they are also platinum rich and/or uranium starved. Finally weapons and PvP could come into play. Imagine if two factions are fighting a war in neighboring clusters, and one side is losing because they can't keep up with fuel demands. You could end up in a very profitable situation or they could take it by force. Either way, 'Enemy of my enemy'/like could easily come into play here.

    In short: the problem is not trading, but that there is little reason to as your are either not at the point you need it, or all you needs is to make a quick stop by the mine to get what you need. However if some players have abundance in one resource, but shortage in another because of their location, they may be more willing to trade, or even fight depending on urgency.
     
  5. Merinsan Apprentice Engineer

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    The problem is there is no permanent items in Minecraft, and no class system.
    In WoW, people traded because they got items that they couldn't use, yet had value. For example I priest might find some epic shield, and could sell it for a lot of money.
    In Minecraft, the best you could find is some great sword or something, but you can use it. And since swords break over time, it is still useful. The cost of repairing items in Minecraft is more than the throwing it away and using a new one you have and for resources in Minecraft, you can use them one way or another, there is nothing you can't use.

    The same will happen for Space Engineers. Because it's about building, you collect resources and build. Not many people will want to trade, because they might need the resource later.
     
  6. Leadfootslim Senior Engineer

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    1,300
    Hmm. I was going to chime in on the "everyone needs resources" thing that seems to be unanimous, but the asymmetry/class bit is one I hadn't considered.

    In another thread on trading, I cited Dwarf Fortress' caravans as an example; you could trade one resource type for another, but you'd rarely do so because you always have a use for any given surplus. Also, you'll always trade away useless crap because NPCs don't care about being gipped.

    That being said, NPC traders would be interesting to see.
     
  7. Trueson Trainee Engineer

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    I belive supply and demand really is the solution here at this point we do have to problem of everything is out there to be mined but if the map was bigger and I new that 100km away I could mine it or I could trade some of this gold with my buddy that needs it and has the iron I need I would trade.

    how ever with the adding of the random unmanned ships I have no need to mine. a salvage yard is quicker and I just grab my grinder and go "shoping" for the parts I need
     
  8. redneckpirate Apprentice Engineer

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    And sometimes around 600 rounds per minute.
     
  9. eyedentify Trainee Engineer

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    This is not WoW, its not Minecraft.
    Why turn it in to anyone of them ?
    leave it alone, SE is fine the direction its going.
     
  10. BrickedKeyboard Apprentice Engineer

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    If there's a compelling reason to trade, that means suddenly there is a reason to engineer cargo ships and convoys and movement of goods across the world. Engineering requires a purpose for what you are creating : otherwise it's just art.
     
  11. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't know where you played, I played minecraft for 2 years on a server with huge market where there were chest shops for everything + auction house and many other chestshops around the world and people were trading wildly (even tho that was modded). Still, I don't understand why you would like to "fix" anything about trading. Trading is a free choice of two people(or group) where both have something and both want the thing other person have. If there will be much diversity in resource allocation (for example ores will be found in different parts of the space in excess while almost none in other parts) people will trade often instead of flying from one side of space to another. If everything will be everywhere people will trade less. Also there is a possibility whole ships will become subjects to trade, especially those well designed. But it's what people will decide, not anyone will be "fixing".

    Edit: 2 ofc, sry for missclick :D
     
  12. Marneus Apprentice Engineer

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    this
     
  13. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    Err... 32 years? Minecraft's not that old.

    The problem with minecraft's trade system is that everything is easy to get. The only items that hold any value are diamonds and emeralds, and that's only for a certain time early on in a server's lifespan where these things are rare. After a month or two, the market becomes saturated with diamonds and they lose their value.

    The same problem is already taking shape in SE. Most of you are probably fairly new and haven't noticed how ore generation is already at insane levels. Asteroids used to be 80-90% stone and required probing and searching for the ores you wanted. Now they're 60-70% ore and there's no way in hell anyone could possibly use it all.
    A 15x15x15m vein of iron ore can supply enough steel plates to make an entire large ship at least twice the size of the default Red ship and many asteroids are composed primarily of iron ore.
    As a result, anyone can go out and find all the ores they need within a single mining trip with a small mining shuttle. There's too much supply and too little demand to facilitate a trading environment.
    At best, you might be able to trade platinum and uranium due to refining times and uses.
     
  14. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah sry, ofc 2, what a bad missclick :D

    Things that made trading on server where I played running should work even here! It was the fact that things have different prices for different person at different place and different time. Obviously everyone in minecraft sooner or later had pretty much everything he needed but he had everything at home in some chests but very limited inventory to take things with him and travelling took some amount of time (despite pretty well designed system of nether-subway built on the server).

    When you are mining at distant part of the server (because the central part is almost out of resourcess) and running low on food, will you buy new food in near village for prices slightly larger than in center of the map or travel 10 minutes home for food and back and eating some food on the way? Will you all the time think about bringing the cart with you to use the nether-subway or just buy one in shop right at the station and sell it back at the final stop for slightly less than the price you bought it for? Won't you buy fire resistance potions in the nether for slightly larger prices when mining glowstone instead of travelling home and create some on your own?

    Those principles could at some scale work in SE aswell. When you are with your ship far away from your base and running out of Uranium or ammunation but full of mined/salvaged materials will you take a long trip back to your base to resupply and burn some amount of Uranium on your way home and back or just stop at nearest station you find and trade the materials you have for Uranium and ammunation?
    If the value of materials you give to the person you are trading with will be lower for you than value of the Uranium and amunation you would take at your base, the value of Uranium you would burn on the way and the value of time you would spend on the way, than you would profit on the trade and you would do it.
     
  15. ReynoldsXD Trainee Engineer

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    Considering it takes exactly zero power to maintain a ships motion, the whole running out of fuel thing seems unlikely.
    Bring the ship on course, disable power. go to your small craft and sit in that cockpit until you are where you wanna go. you will have minimal power usage and uranium drain.

    As for forcing trade: You will never succeed in shaping a players behaviour. All you can accomplish is piss him off into leaving.
    Player will coop on their own, heck games like this live off groups of people dougn stuff together. These groups will have what amounts to community storage anyway.



    What are you trying to balance the game for? hardcore competitive multiplayer?
     
  16. haagentie Trainee Engineer

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    I think the solution for SE could be in map design with a faction system. Minecraft came with an infinite ore procedural generation ruining any market system. SE map aren't procedural, and eventually ore will be missing. Just like IRL. ^^

    In one hand, factions would start on asteroids with a large variety of ore (to start) , but in small quantity (to force exploration).

    On the other hand, there would be bigger asteroids with only one or two types of ore on it in various quantity. For exemple if one of the only map's asteroid full of uranium is possessed by a faction, then the price of uranium will be fixed by this faction. The price will make other faction buy if it's a fair price, or it will force them to war, maybe alliance, diplomacy etc if it's unfair.

    Of course this solution will depend on map size and number of player authorized by the final version of the game and dedicated server system. For me it would be fun with at least 5 factions.

    Do you like this solution? Maybe it's not new or realistic or else.

    PS: Sorry for any english mistakes etc. This is not my primary language and i'm far to be fluent in it.
     
  17. Fedor Trainee Engineer

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    1) Asteroid that consists of 99% iron or another resourse that can be useable - real.
    2) If we will have sectors of only iron with bit of other resourses you will just farm resourses from rescue ships, because in other way i will run out of your uranium or just will not be able to construct even a "trade ship"
    3) As greg tech player (minecraft mod) i can say that trading system have no use in games when you have no need of regular supply. When you finish your ship or what else you want, you will no need in resourses from trader any more. So trader have no interest in spending on you his resourses. Why? because mining is not automated, and resourse (any kind of metal) is not renewable if you spend your time on other guy you may have no time for yourself and later you will need to find other sourse of ore, that can be claimed by other player. I saw theme about Uranium equivalent for other ores or even assembled parts, butbut if you think a bit: for example when you and other player have miners with 2 drills, you mine iron ore, he mines platinum ore both of you have spent same time on mining (for example 1 hour) will you trade iron ore for platinum like 1 : 1???
    + you have no idea with what player you trade - you can sponsor pirates that will rob you when get enough power ;)

    try to forgive me for mistakes or so i'm bad in english.
     
  18. dpurgert Apprentice Engineer

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    You're kinda hitting both ends of the spectrum here.

    If you're on a "PvP server", where people ARE shooting each other regularly, then you will always need more / new resources to replace the losses.

    If you're on a "not very PvP server" (i.e. where you're all "peaceful builders" ... until the [specific ore] runs out) ... well, then you'll need to start trading for the material(s) you cannot get via mining anymore.

    I doubt it'll ever get to the point where 1Pt = 1Fe ... but, scaled more towards the value of the material - say 500Fe / 1Pt (note - totally made up)
     
  19. Dcjxd Trainee Engineer

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    Ive read a lot of comparisons with vanilla minecraft, which in itself doesn't encourage trade. But with some of the mods in mind, especially stuff like industrialcraft, where complex, tiered production chains and cycles are needed to produce the best equipment, there's certainly a good system that could be used for Space Engineers. Currently, we are vanilla minecraft, as some of you stated before. Whatever we need, we can easily get it ourselves. If we want bigger amounts of ressources, we simply have to mine and sometimes wait for the refinery, thats all. And thats dull.
    If the devs decide to expand or rewrite the current system of producing and refining goods, we may have a direct stimulation for players to specialize. Bigger production rigs for a certain type of component, more efficient advanced tech or whatever will help distinguish the player's trades aside from mining/shooting people would greatly benefit the game. Or we just have to hope and wait for some modders to expand on this. Just like in Minecraft ;)
     
  20. Fedor Trainee Engineer

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    I meant time that you spent on mining i spent 1 hour to mine platinum, you spent 1 hour to mine iron, but if we trade 1 : 500 you will need to spent 500 hours to buy all my platinum.
     
  21. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    Thats really bad (socialistic) way to value something. Everything is only as valuable as you value something and other people can value the exact same thing very dfferently. True is that mining Pt is as fast as mining Fe (If you ask me this could also change in the future, either making ores of rare elements more resistant thus making mining them slower or lower yield of ingots from ores) so mining one hour will yield as much Fe as it would Pt. But if that person values Pt more than he values Fe, he won't trade 1:1. Prices aren't (and can't be) something dictated, it's something that needs to be figured out by two parties of the trade in a way that both sides profit.
    Because if one of the side would't profit on the trade, why would he willingly trade?

    If the game balance should encourage free trading between players, possible ways are (best multiple of them):
    - Different mining speeds/ore resistances/yield of ingots per ore. So 1 hour of mining Fe ore yields more Fe than 1 hour mining of Pt ore yields Pt.
    - More asymetrical distribution of ores into asteroids in space e.g. places/quadrants where some ores are in excess and others are very rare.
    - More complicated crafting tree with different goods (for example more complex parts used for weapons/ore detectors/antenas requiring alloys that needs more time and ores to produce and maybe new machine to mix alloys, enriching Uranium which takes time and specific machine but creates more effective fuel, etc...).
    - Thing that already may work out - trading as time saving. You can get something with trading at the place where you are or fly long way home with your ship to take it from your supplies.
     
  22. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    The solution is the distribution of ores. You need to make it so that you may have every mineral and ore available in a sector, but not on a single asteroid (Unless that single asteroid was especially rich). As it is now, it's just too easy to land somewhere and abruptly have everything.

    Should be a matter of changing it up so all asteroids have a related grouping of minerals (Something that has Gold, has a higher chance of having platinum, something with those has a low chance of having Iron, etc) present on asteroids. This way people will be forced to trade or search farther out to find what they need at the very least.

    Right now that isnt' feasible.

    When asteroids spawn infinitely, then we can start seeing if that will be a reality.
     
  23. Fixer Apprentice Engineer

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    Minecraft is not the game we should be using for comparison in trading.

    Think more like Settlers of Catan (board game).
     
  24. kai769 Trainee Engineer

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    on the minecraft server i played on there was plenty of trading going on not because ppl couldn't get the resources but because ppl couldn't be bothered to go mining for them,

    i think the same thing will happen on space engineers, some ppl will enjoy mining and make it their play style and others will do other things and may not want to mine so they buy the materials they need from the miners,

    there is always money to be made from lazy people :thumb:
     
  25. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    It'd be the other way around though.

    The lazy people would be doing the mining.
    The less lazy people would be doing their building for them.
     
  26. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    Not necessarily anything wrong with that.
     
  27. xwhitemousex Apprentice Engineer

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    The core of trading is the well known "Supply and Demand".

    If I need something then I will try to obtain the item, and while doing so I will evaluate what options I have and then choose an option based on some criteria.

    Considering anything I need in Space Engineers can be obtained yourself through either mining or salvaging ships it leaves only two other criteria for me to consider to choose trading over mining/salvaging myself.

    1. Time factor : Do I want to spend the time mining/salvaging to get those items?
    2. Cost factor : Are the items I want within a price range that I feel is reasonable?

    Put simple... only incentive to trade is because you are too lazy to go mine/salvage yourself, and you can afford not to.

    To make trading a gameplay feature in the game you need to have more than just ore to trade (and no, I am not listing ingots and components cause you have those by 'default' if you have the ore). What other commodities or items can be introduced in the game that would create a larger market and also enable some rarities that aren't easily obtained by everyone (like the ore)?

    Ship blueprints, e.g. designs?
    Upgraded components/blocks, e.g. by spending a certain amount of time or rare resources like Pt you can produce welders that weld faster, AI circuit boards which enable welding drones, etc?
    Rare 'drops', for instance components or items you find on AI ships, such as higher damage ammunition, faster firing guns, more efficient mining drills, more powerful thrusters, more efficient refineries or assemblers, rare/unique interior items such as special looking doors, windows, interior walls et.c.

    For there to be a market to even do trading in the game there has to be more than ore... and there has to be some level of rarity involved so that the items are desired and not just commonplace and freely available to anyone who just spends some time (mining for the most part).

    I'm not going to pay for 50.000L of iron ore. I might pay for a rare 'drop' mining drill that has 30% improved efficiency over a standard one.
     
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