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Why exposed bridges are a bad idea (best example ever)

Discussion in 'General' started by Howitz, Dec 4, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    A smaller ship could have disabled its weapons and engines, and boarded the vessel so that the destroyer would have an easier time containing the Tantive IV, at a much lower risk, if Tantive IV was carrying a powerful bomb and the plans were just bait to ensure its delivery, they could have lost a capital ship. The Rebel Alliance is a militant resistance who's members are clearly willing to lay down their lives in defiance of the empire, such tactics should be accounted for, yet they were blatantly overlooked.

    Edit, the ship could have EASILY been made a Trojan Horse
     
  2. Hellothere! Apprentice Engineer

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    Well, it's actually kind of weird plot convenience that no one in the ship had time to re-establish control while it was going for the death star. One would assume that at least the people in engineering might find a way to manually turn the ship or activate the breaking thrusters.
     
  3. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    Actually I think they were all taken captive, however, it is odd that they didn't plan for it to go boom once it was inside the Star Destroyer's shields, be it by timed detonation or a hidden droid instructed to activate a ship self destruct once they were where it'd do the most damage.
     
  4. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

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    While such an event did happen in the old EU, in the movies it is heavily implied that you are simply not going to do much damage to an Imperator without armaments of similar scale, such as the Mon Calamari capital ships or the ion cannon on Hoth. Not to mention that the Tantive IV was a registered diplomatic vessel with someone who was both a high ranking member of the Rebel Alliance and a member of the Imperial Senate. Given that Leia was one of the reasons the Tantive IV was captured in the first place, I find it unlikely that the Empire would have pursued the ship had they not been sure she was onboard.

    There's also the fact that Vader, as a Sith Lord, would be able to use the force to determine who is onboard (thus it would be impossible for the rebels to fake her presence the moment Vader was in the vicinity of the ship) and he would be able to sense the intentions of those onboard.

    Finally, as depicted in the films and in the old EU, the Rebel Alliance was rather averse to terrorism except in extreme circumstances. While the other event in the old EU was, if I recall correctly, done by an overtly military ship, the Tantive IV was a vessel afforded diplomatic protection. Abusing such protection to damage or destroy a warship by a suicidal attack would probably gain the rebels no friends, and indeed may have caused them to lose support, and have ultimately accomplished nothing.
     
  5. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    doesn't have to be a bomb per-say, they could have had software weapons, a smart virus that broadcasts all the Empire secrets it can find, regardless they should have treated it as a potential trap, any competent commander would recognize the possibility and respond accordingly. IRC the force cant determine the intentions of droids, and if a droid was planted BEFORE Leia even set foot onboard, without her knowledge such an individual could have used her as a martyr, both to rally the forces they have and (more importantly) gain more standing themselves.
     
  6. EvilDylan Apprentice Engineer

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    If no ships had flaws, then no battles would be fun. Just linear and drawn-out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  7. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    all ships have flaws, the trick lies in finding them
     
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  8. blizzerd Apprentice Engineer

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    Thats actually not so "overengineered" at all compared to armour on the Yamato.
    the IOWA class had 290 mm to 370 mm of steel on its conning towers (depending on ship)

    the yamato had 500mm, with some critical places having 650mm
     
  9. Qestroy Trainee Engineer

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    Didn't save her from torpedo's though :p
     
  10. Volcano Apprentice Engineer

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    Anyway it required quite a big punch of bombs and torps to sink the Yamato, and it was a huge explosion, presumably of an ammunition rack, that finally delivered her the coup de grĂ¢ce.
     
  11. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Jeff Goldblum didn't have his apple laptop until the mid 90's so smart viruses couldn't be used yet
     
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  12. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    Well we know that a small (and on somewhat old hardware) AI can effortlessly hack the Death Star, so a pure software droid could be a rather powerful weapon.
     
  13. Azzanine Apprentice Engineer

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    To be frank I blame it all on movie magic.
    I'm not sure there's a reactor technology capable of asplodeing a whole ship. At worst you'd end up with a ship that's mostly corium where the reactor's situated.
    The death star would have most likely melted inside out over a couple weeks. Of course it used a spacemagicarium reactor so it exploded with one shot.
    But if sci fi didn't use magic and tried for realism every ship would just be huge geometric chunks of tungsten carbide.
     
  14. Reflexus Apprentice Engineer

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    I find exposed bridges on battleships a great idea.

    But only in the event if your goal is to fill that bridge with heavy armor and use it as a decoy, while you sit in the safety of your vault. Hey, that's a rather good idea :D
     
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  15. HCP2311 Trainee Engineer

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    Well.. an exposed bridge like that would be a flying bridge, not a battle bridge, and in the thick of a battle like that control should be transferred over to the battle bridge.
     
  16. Xentor Junior Engineer

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    The SW/ST nerdiness in this thread is positively mindblowing. On the one hand, you guys have way too much free time...

    And on the other hand... I bow before the geekiness, particularly @Commander Rotal ... The forums need a :beer: smiley so I could raise a glass :)
     
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  17. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    antimatter can be rather volatile, if they stored large quantities as a buffer for large power draws, it could possibly cause such a reaction.
     
  18. aRottenKomquat Apprentice Engineer

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    EU reactor technology is not well-defined. Most of the time it's never explained, the once or twice it was they discussed hypermatter reactors that somehow pull particles from hyperspace and use that as fuel. I think that was in the Death Star novel. Still, to have enough power to destroy a planet the Death Star would have to have been mostly reactor.
     
  19. HCP2311 Trainee Engineer

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    The Death Star was in fact, one giant reactor.
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Light_gemini Junior Engineer

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    How many reactor components would that require? :p
     
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  21. aRottenKomquat Apprentice Engineer

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    ALL of them.
     
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  22. Volcano Apprentice Engineer

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    Astronomical quantities. :p
     
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  23. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    But beer taste like cardboard :( can we do Ice Tea instead?
     
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  24. Xentor Junior Engineer

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    Does it? Never tried beer OR iced tea, matter-of-fact... But raising a glass of water just doesn't carry the same symbolism :)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  25. aRottenKomquat Apprentice Engineer

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    Back on-topic, most of my designs have an open, glassed-in bridge, however these designs are not intended for heavy combat use. They're lightly-armed and lightly-armored, which works great since we don't really PvP on my dedicated server.

    I still occasionally work on combat-oriented designs just for fun though. They still have my standard bridge design for visibility when things are safe, but they usually have one or two battle bridges which are well inside the ship, surrounded in heavy armor, and have multiple interior turrets to protect against boarders. Finally, I have enough consoles scattered around the ship that in reality the ship could be piloted from almost any section, making it easy to decentralize the crew so one lucky hit doesn't wipe out your pilot plus all your gunners.
     
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  26. Qestroy Trainee Engineer

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    On? Topic?
    What is this madness?!

    But yeah, I prefer ships with weaknesses such as windows and bridges and such because the fights between them just look so much better. And the game doesn't tank as hard with them :p

    Besides you don't actually have to fly it from the bridge just because it has one...
     
  27. aRottenKomquat Apprentice Engineer

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    I wonder if there's a good way to provide "bridge bonuses", or somehow it's easier and better to fly the ship from the bridge than it is elsewhere. I don't even know where to start on this idea though.

    I wish we had more console designs, like gunnery consoles, factory consoles, inventory management consoles, etc. Single-purpose consoles that don't control the entire ship. I hate sitting down in my reactor room to refuel the reactors, or to work on an LCD script for the reactor display, and accidentally move the ship while I'm at it. I know there's the "Main Cockpit" setting but it seems you can't have multiple "Main Cockpits", and the various checkboxes to adjust gyro control and inertial dampening either don't work at all or aren't what I'm expecting them to be.
     
  28. Zyfe Trainee Engineer

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    Except it was Wedge who said it... not Porkins. :p
     
  29. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

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    Your take on:
    A) E-D taking a direct hit from an Ori warship?
    B) E-D vs. a Shadow vessel (cruiser)?



    Narada vs. USS Kelvin... There were no more snots left to kick there. Advanced weapons from the future (though perhaps/questionably less than military grade) took....years? to compromise the Kelvin's armor. You could almost see the crew aging in the time it took to punch through.


    -Morloc
     
  30. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    Had to refresh my memory on the Ori Warship's capabilities.
    My gut feeling tells me that the Enterprise could mop the floor with them if - and only IF - they go full force immediately without letting the Ori shoort first. I give the Enterprise's shields two, maaaybe three shots from the Ori's weapon systems before the Shields go down, at which point it's turkey carving time. My gut feeling comes from this: Asgrad Shields are generally quite good; not on Federation level, but for the Stargate universe quite powerful. Still, Ori weapons could trounce them with a shot ot two. While i see the Galaxy Class taking more hits i don't quite believe they would stay up for too long; they're far less overpowered than people like to make them out to be. In contrast, though, the Ori's Shields don't seem too impressive themselfs, at least not compared to how superior their weaponry is (in Unending the Asgard-outfitted... was it the Daedalus? I forgot.) held itself fairly well against them. Soooo if the Enterprise goes full force IMMEDIATELY it's bye-bye Ori, probably with a Generations-scenario of losing the Warp Cores structural integrity if the Ori get a shot through. (The big factor here is how Picard would act, since you specified it to be the Enterprise-D. This scenario is presuming a random first contact scenario, not a full blown war, and also no prior knowledge (no pun intended). Which wouldn't mean much for the Ori; they'd probably shoot first anyway. PICARD, on the other hand... he's the real game changer here.)

    I will have to look up a battle of those, i never got arround to watch the entirety of Babylon 5 (i know, i know, i'm ashamed). So it's especially hard for me to form an oppinion, nevermind an informed one. However, looking at some random footage from an episode called "Shadow Dancing"... seems like a Reeper-scenario to me: incredibly overpowered ships... for that particular universe. I'm not well versed in the B5 universe but the shadow weapons seem to be more of an unstoppable force than an insta-boom weapon like a well placed Photon Torpedo. I find myself unable to give a fair statement here mostly because i don't know their enemy's defensive capabilities. Just going by what i SEE i'd say the Enterprise wouldn't be in any real danger. Doesn't seem like any of these ships have deflector systems.*

    First Problem: assuming that mining ship is advanced; considering how old even frontline ships can be in that universe the Narada might be a century old by itself. We don't know.
    Second Problem: assuming their torpedoes are actual weapons. It's a mining vessel. Admittedly, a romulan mining vessel, but for all we know that's merely some futuristic space TNT for better access to the ores the orcs want to harvest.
    Third Problem: not every battle damage (particularly in Star Trek) is immediately visible from the outside. The ships have shock absorbers, Shield systems regularly suffer feedback loops from fire impacting on them etc, and all of that flows right back into the hull. That puts a lot of strain on it and it was typically leads to the famous exploding EPS conduits and bridge consoles. It's an unintended side effect of the way the ships protect themself. The Narrada, while not breaking the Kelvin's hull per se en large, broke a shit ton of systems to the point where evacuation was the best of several really shitty alternatives. Truth be told this is a bit of a leftover from the old days when they streightup couldn't afford to show the damage on the outside; for the Planet Killer episode they bought and broke a model from a hobby store :D
    Man, i knew going in i would hate that movie but i do like most non-Enterprise Starfleet designs in 2009. It's like "Look, we have very talented people designing our starships - NOW GAZE AT THIS SOMBRERO WEARING CIGAR WIELDING TWO HOT DOG!". I quite like the Kelvin, to be honest. Accomplished jackshit doing it but went down like a boss.

    * Yes, i know that this does not necessarily mean that their tactical capabilities are diminished just because they don't have shields; shit, the Borg don't use Shields (most of the time, anyway) and look how nasty those fuckers are. However i haven't noticed any deflectors on any of those ships soooo to me it simply seems to be a design choice of the universe. I'd be delighted if you could educate me on that, btw!

    Edit: i, uh, i thought this was clear and didn't bear mentioning buuuuut i'm not attempting to sound like or declare myself a pan-franchise soapbox knowitall professorin Oak-person. It's just the way i talk.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
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