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Why I'm not excited about Multiplayer

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by whistler118, Jan 17, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. whistler118 Apprentice Engineer

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    139
    Since buying this game I have been keeping an eye on the forums to see general opinions and the "what people want" threads which are always interesting. Unfortunately, one of the top items on the list was multiplayer which I was never looking forward to as long as their wasn't a survival mode.

    With Multiplayer being released less than 24hrs ago already stories of people building on an open server only to have someone copy and paste a past ship in and ruin everyones fun is happening. Furthermore, I realized that at the game in its current state, with lag spikes for the stupidest of things, it was fairly obvious that servers would be completely unstable and in some cases unplayable.

    Of course, their are ways to enjoy multiplayer at the moment, such as with a friends only server and all connected to steam voice. Building massive structures will take half the time and be more imaginative than ever before.

    But is this worth it? I know its only a week to the next patch but I still felt disappointed that they wanted to test the multiplayer other than add key features like big ship weapons, additional blocks and more survival features which would have made the singleplayer but also the multiplayer experience so much more enjoyable when it was to be released.

    I would like to known your views below. If you are enjoying it or if you have had horror stories let us know.



    Edit: This comment is originally on the Steam discussion and one key point raised is the need for not only player owned servers but for the time being a few dedicated servers. This way the devs can analyse play styles, record stats for optimization and for us reduce the lag.
     
  2. Thalion Apprentice Engineer

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    Well MP was the most wanted feature from the community and it is one of the most complicated to implement. As an developer i'd like to implement it early to have plenty of time to test it and the further development not only in SP. It might be harder to implement features with only SP available. What people do on their server and if they're allowing trolls to destroy everything it totally up to them. Even if there was manual mode (or survival) available if would still not suffice for a real server to run.
     
  3. Azan Trainee Engineer

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    I think its better that they implement it early myself, better to do it now while the game is simpler rather than wait until its more feature complete. Net code is some of the hardest to debug and get working correctly, this will give them time to stabilise things in a much simpler environment.
     
  4. busboy Trainee Engineer

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    The game is in Alpha. "Fun" isn't as relevant as generating crash logs and reporting bugs right now. We paid for the privilege of helping test and shape a game before it's release. Personally, I'm having a lot of fun doing so. However, it's premature to say "it isn't going to be fun" based on game mechanics when the devs are focused first on ironing out the net code, etc.

    Patience. Wait until blueprints exist and they can disable multiplayer copy/paste.
     
  5. bacondeity Apprentice Engineer

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    This is the point that a lot of people seem to keep missing. They act as though the game has been released officially with just weekly updates, yet still claiming that they know it's in alpha.

    It's irrelevant when or what they release in their updates because it'll all be part of the final product. People need to start either understanding or thinking differently and make the process of helping create the game a matter of aid rather than a matter of complaints.

    The multiplayer, as it stands, is basically a proof of concept. It works (more or less), and it'll be improved. But no matter the game, there will always be griefers.
     
  6. whistler118 Apprentice Engineer

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    @bushoy and @bacondeity
    I am fully aware that this is still in Alpha stages (indeed the devs says the multiplayer is the "alpha of the alpha") and much like you enjoying being part of the development process. However, I felt that they could have had a better response not only from us in terms of suggestions and the like but also a better return of stats and reports from their system to debug and improve the netcoding if they had waited a week or two. This would have given them more time to do further testing and in the mean time put in some more important elements like big ship weapons.
    With a load of people having troubles even connecting to online game and many more are experiencing near unplayable lag what results do you think the devs will receive apart from the obvious? Would it not be better to release multiplayer later and have more systems "on" for it and thus receive a plethora of results which they can effectively control and work on?
    However, if you are enjoying the multiplayer then carry on. Im not here to change your views just to see the the responses and start discussions which maybe the devs might see.
     
  7. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    791
    Even though you say you understand that it's an alpha of an alpha you do not. If you don't want multiplayer, that's fine; the rest of us do. If it's too laggy or buggy; that's fine, don't play it. Just don't discourage the devs from doing their job. They are doing fantastic so far.
     
  8. Oselotti Junior Engineer

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    837
    When you are starting multiplayer world there is choise friend or open. I'm not sure who are friends but maybe it means steam friends. I think multiplayer is great tool to show your creations to your friends. Perhaps they add some lock system later so people cannot copy our ships if we don't want to share them.
     
  9. Yar987 Trainee Engineer

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    I just hope "xxxxx is unbalanced" doesn't hinder the development process. I'd rather see everything IN the game first, before worrying about "balance"
     
  10. busboy Trainee Engineer

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    "With a load of people having troubles even connecting to online game and many more are experiencing near unplayable lag what results do you think the devs will receive apart from the obvious? Would it not be better to release multiplayer later and have more systems "on" for it and thus receive a plethora of results which they can effectively control and work on?"

    We are TESTING. If the devs released something, it means they were ready for us to test it.

    "They shouldn't release something for testing until they know it works." Well, you don't know something works until you test it.

    And, again, enjoyment is secondary to moving the game in the right direction. I'm not enjoying multiplayer. I've only been able to log in once, for a few minutes. Generally I have the same problems as everyone else. However, I know that every time I hit "send" on a crash report I'm helping the game. This isn't about attacking or defending game mechanics or business decisions. Its just about testing. If I have fun doing it...awesome!
     
  11. Nasias Trainee Engineer

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    11
    It's quite simple, really. It was logically sound to implement multiplayer at this stage, if not to make the community very happy, then to make future development more smooth.

    Without multiplayer:
    - Release feature A, test it, fix bugs
    - Release feature B, test it, fix bugs
    - Release feature C, test it, fix bugs
    - Release feature D, test it, fix bugs
    - Release multiplayer, test feature A fix bugs, test feature B, fix bugs, test feature C, fix bugs, test feature D, fix bugs.

    With multiplayer:
    - Release feature A, test it, fix bugs
    - Release feature B, test it, fix bugs
    - Release feature C, test it, fix bugs
    - Release feature D, test it, fix bugs

    As you can see, there's a lighter workload, that doesn't involve going back to completed parts and testing them, because testing on single player and then multiplayer is almost like developing two separate games.
     
  12. anybodysguess Apprentice Engineer

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    184
    Multiplayer isn't all that bad if you only play with one other friend from steam.

    Also when they said lights and stuff wasn't working I was pleasantly surprised to find that they do work, just their details (on off, color, etc) don't sync. So if each player turns them on they do work. I thought they wouldn't work at all.

    Building in the same world, Yes, building on the same small ship. No sometimes to much block placement lag. Building on same large ship different ends, yes. So it is useful.

    Also if your friend disconnects or whatever you need to completely restart on both ends.

    For these reasons, don't even try to host or join a public server.

    Now just for large ship weapons!

    And armor balancing, even with a rule of a sing gatling gun each, and no rockets, we destroy each other in seconds.
     
  13. Thalion Apprentice Engineer

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    255
    Well, my friends and i had trouble to shoot each other with rockets due to the difficulties at aming from a moving target on a moving target with a weapon which needs a second or more to hit. On close range and slow speeds if was an viable option. Long range encounter worked much better with gatling guns.
     
  14. whistler118 Apprentice Engineer

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    139
    @Wombats
    Im not discouraging Im critiquing. If all the feedback was positive just because people are excited over a shiny new mechanic then the devs might become disillusioned and making wrong decision (which has happened before in other early release games I have played). Keeping a balanced opinion, both positive and negative, helps draws a more balanced product.
    @bushoy
    I fully understand we are testing -this isn't my first early access purchase. But how can you test something if it doesn't work. As you said you, and indeed a majority of people, are having problems getting into a server let alone "testing" it, so if you keep pressing the send crash report button they will be inundated with 'failure to launch / connect' crashes. Great you might say, Wrong, because if in one week that is the majority of reports they receive its inefficient and a waste of time. I would have preferred for them to test it further themselves for an additional week before we attempt to test it. But whats done is done, this post isn't going to reset the clocks but I hope, if the devs see this, they will realise that instead of releasing a "sort of done" element of the game it will be "pretty much done" so it can be tested to breaking point rather than the breaking point being tested.
    @Nasias
    A very good point and i don't disagree. But lets look at it as it stands. Multiplayer contains most of the features but doors, gears and landing gears don't work and explosions cause lag. So when testing both SP and MP features like you say they are still not doing it as they have released it too early. I would have preferred if they had waited 1 week, maybe 2 at the most, to make sure when it was released features like these and the lag was sorted. Then by all means they can release features for both SP and MP which can then be tested. I just feel like it was released a little too early. But as I said to bushoy, whats done is done, this post won't change that but I hope in the future the devs will make sure things are complete before sending to us to test.
     
  15. busboy Trainee Engineer

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    Reporting that something doesn't work *is* testing.
     
  16. freshmango55 Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm excited for dedicated servers that can hold much more people and with endless sectors of space. Not this test stuff, but that is way down the road.
     
  17. Nasias Trainee Engineer

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    11
    One of the problems when you're testing in the office is that things are generally set up properly, you have decent hardware to test on and you'll also probably be testing everything on a local area network (lan). You're probably also not going to be playing/testing the game for as long as a player will be playing it (you'd probably play a few hours worth of SE for the fun element, which the dev's aren't able to do. You may find that, after one hour of play, the game de-syncs for example).

    Releasing multiplayer to those who have access to the alpha state of testing is a smart move at this stage. (Remember, if you bought the game only to play it and have fun, then you bought it at the wrong time.) By releasing multiplayer at this stage, they can accommodate for most of the variables that would potentially cause bugs. For example; they may find that people who play with routers that have uPnP disabled, cannot play online with friends. They may find that people who have slow processors tend to time out more often than people with faster processors. There are a lot of things they can test and a lot of information they can get back from the player base.
     
  18. Leon026 Apprentice Engineer

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    155
    Well yes. A public server is going to attract people spawning ships to blow everything up.

    So you set it to private and/or friends-only. Problem solved.


    Right now, MP is in the pure testing phase, but if you want to have co-op group projects, a public server is the last place you want to do that in.
     
  19. Stiletto Apprentice Engineer

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    381
    Damn it! You are The Wise One.

    Considering that me and my buddies apparently like destroying more than we like building in our private server.

    You have to teach us your Zen powers! :D
     
  20. NeoValkyrion Trainee Engineer

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    87
    To put it simply, neither you, nor I, nor any member of this forum is qualified to tell KeenSWH that they released multiplayer too early, nor what value they gain from our feedback on what they've released. The fact of the matter is that unless you are one of the developers on the team who is writing the code, you are completely ignorant of the state of the project aside from what KeenSWH tells you it is. You have no idea what bugs need to be fixed, what features are finished in other private builds they've made that we don't see, and what kind of information they are obtaining from this multiplayer release.

    When we buy an early access game, we are signing up to be voluntary QA testers for KeenSWH. Do you know how ridiculous it would be for a QA Tester to tell a Software Engineer how to do their job? It doesn't matter what qualifications you have - you don't have access to the information that the developers are using to make decisions. No - our job is to play the game, find the bugs, and report them to KeenSWH. And if we have fun doing it, then that's just all the more awesome for us. :)
    It's completely fair for you to be unexcited about multiplayer. But don't deny that this topic is only here for you to express your discontent, and don't claim there's any kind of useful discussion or feedback for KeenSWH to be had from it. Check the General Discussion forum - you're not the first person to post something like this.


    So how can you make a positive contribution towards Space Engineers? Do your job! :) When you discover a bug in multiplayer, go to the Technical Support forums and write a detailed description of what was happening before the bug occurred, whether you are able to reproduce the bug, and what happens when the bug occurs.
    Or just be a freeloader like me and enjoy the game where you can while it's being built. ^ ^
     
  21. Stonewolf Junior Engineer

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    776
    I could be wrong, but I believe I represent of the more general player out there. I don't have the best computer or the best net out there. Yet this multiplayer is a loads of fun for me. I did not set huge expectations for it either. Seeing some of the videos out there people doing dogfighting shows me how much more fun it could be. But I can still do what I can even if something don't work. Doing my own thing and reporting bugs if I ran in to any. That I believe why we have access to this at this point anyway. Only advice I can give to the OP is to stay away from games that are not fully released.
     
  22. davesoft Apprentice Engineer

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    168
    I havn't even read the rest of your post yet and already: Agreed [​IMG]


    And now I've caught up, Enjoy what you can, consider what you don't. There's already ANOTHER update downloading in my Steam window right now.. so say whatever you please, Keen's momentum is still impressive
     
  23. Thalion Apprentice Engineer

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    255

    Yeah, i think that simply took most of wind out of this threads sails. But aside from that we shouldn't talk about any releases. So this is a little more complicated than just "how dare we to discuss this".
     
  24. Jakejud Apprentice Engineer

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    WAT, if they are completed why do we need to test them! Your sentences are lacking in logic!
     
  25. busboy Trainee Engineer

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    And end thread.
     
  26. propagandawar Apprentice Engineer

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    My buddy and i got on fine last night. Two different countries and all was good. The game got super slow and I would just relog it. Also people complaining about others joining their group and nuking them well thats as simple as closing the server. I'm happy about this and looking forward to survival mode as well.
     
  27. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    1,409
    Honestly im not pleased about MP being released BEFORE other aspects are finished such the Armour values, all the blocks which we dont have yet. etc etc.

    whilst feed back on the issues is probably good to get MP working properly i honestly would rather that the basic mechanics are fixed and polished first before everyone gets to be kill crazy.

    also ensuring that Private servers truly are Private so the builders are not harassed by unknowns. ok its day 2 of it and no doubt the devs are working hard to correct the issues.
     
  28. busboy Trainee Engineer

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    The fact of the matter is your pleasure has nothing to do with how the game developers choose to roll out features for testing.
     
  29. whistler118 Apprentice Engineer

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    So much anger and we all know what anger leads to. (star wars fans may know)
    Perhaps I didn't explain myself or people are incompetent at understanding what words are. This post started out as a friendly "my views" post from an objective stand point and to judge what people think about multiplayer. I have read all the replied and agree with many of them. I understand and agree with what one person said about it is easier to test both MP and SP features at the same time hence the early release of MP in this state. I am also aware that we have no knowledge into the workings of the devs and how far or how little the dev process is. I also aware that there is a button that allows me to lock out any unwanted people and have a friends only server, as if I wasn't aware of that you buffoon! I am also aware that the devs have an internal system and if it works on their network it might not necessarily work in the outside world. And finally and most importantly I am fully aware that this is in Alpha stages with the MP being quoted as "an alpha of an alpha".
    I appreciated and acknowledged all of these comments and knew many of them myself before writing the main OP yet I still disagree that MP should have been released this week. Its like giving us access to the rotor block, yet they will only give us the bottom part to make sure the mechanism works before you can attach anything to it. Now wheres the sense in that? Yes you can see that the block is placeable, that the scroll bars work and the button change when you click them, but you can't see if it turns and you can't test to what limits of torque you need to move certain weights until it breaks. How can the devs get decent feed back of a half released feature?
    I write this in order to better devs creation and not to be mesmerized in the shiny features such as turning guns and a friend who can help me build a square like many people in this comment section have. I am thoroughly enjoying this game and look forward to every patch but hate it when an opportunity is missed. I always knew this OP would get some resistance but this level of hate in return really does reflect the community. I don't know what I am more disappointed in, the inability for me to get on a server and create an awesome ship with friends or the fact that when the game goes live I will have to deal with this percentage of this community.
     
  30. DrVagax Administrator

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    821
    The whole reason why we released multiplayer is for players to test it out. Only our players can truly test out this and find every possible crash/bug they may find and this would speed up the bug fixing by miles.
    And you sort of signed up for all of this. We cannot help it if you are unhappy about new features.
     
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