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Your pattern indicates...two dimensional thinking...

Discussion in 'General' started by UrbanLegend, Jul 5, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. UrbanLegend Apprentice Engineer

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    Just an observation, but every ship design I've seen so far (including my own to be honest) follows the standard Star Wars / Starship Troopers / Aliens / Halo / Anime trope of a space ship as a metal brick/wedge in space. That is to say, long and narrow in the direction of travel with artificial gravity oriented up and down. Or IOW, like a submarine in space.

    I'd like to see some more interesting designs. Maybe design a ship with the gravity oriented in the direction of travel so it's more like an "office building in space". Probably more realistic anyway since your artificial gravity would be working with the ships acceleration, not perpendicular to it.

    Maybe place gravity generators in an interesting way so there is more than one "up" in your ship.

    I'll see if I can come with some examples so it's not just a lot of big talk.:D
     
  2. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    4,069
    you mean like these:

    My first attempts http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1281686782&postcount=84

    My next one after that http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1281712846&postcount=88

    And another http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1281720583&postcount=91

    And another http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1281740407&postcount=94

    and another http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1281751851&postcount=96

    and another http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1281779521&postcount=102

    And possibly one of my best http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1281798809&postcount=106


    I haven't done one in ages but making a "Ship" is just easier when its like a naval vessel.
     
  3. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    having gravity point only one way helps navigation, Box shaped ships can be very efficient in terms of ammunition and construction, a large enough wedge to house a sustainable quantity of ammo can dish out a large amount of firepower, so long as it keeps its enemy mostly in front of it. As for gravity pointed in the dirrection of acceleration, that will give you the "bouncy castle" effect where hitting the floor will set your "downwards" velocity to 0 and the floor will move out from under you and you will fall until you hit it over and over again, we also tend to design our ships based on what we think they should look like, so while not necessary we often do make boxes and wedges...
     
  4. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

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    888
    What do you mean, a "bouncy castle" effect?

    I've made a lot of building-style ships and they all work fine. Though they're a tad more difficult to do the interiors of since you end up with a lot of floors that are smaller.
     
  5. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    try walking on a ship that is moving in the direction of gravity, the faster the more noticeable, if you use the ship its self as your point of reference every time you touch the floor you will appear to bounce upwards when really your vertical velocity is 0 and the ship's isn't and then you will accelerate downwards until you hit the floor again and your velocity is back down to 0 and the cycle repeats, its best if your primary direction of acceleration is perpendicular to the direction of gravity if you want multiple people on board
     
  6. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

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    888
    I've never encountered that, not even in multiplayer. But I do have better internet connection than most, so meh.
     
  7. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    I like Atlantis from SG-A, that flying city! :D
    [​IMG]
     
  8. GreenGod Trainee Engineer

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    Yeah this effect is certainly enhanced by lag from my experience. As for the wedge/tube design, while it may just feel familiar and look 'normal' to our eyes, there are also two practical benefits that I can think of. First is that orienting the third person camera can be tough with some ship shapes. Not that it can't be done but if you have to swing your view 180deg plus change tilt (can I could roll my view?) every time you hop in a ship it can be annoying. Second would be simply maneuverability. While I will take your challenge and give this some thought, so far I've found ships that are skinny in at least one dimension and without large protuberances forward wrt movement direction (if that makes any since) to be most useful for flying. I haven't gotten up to building a capital ship in my survival world yet though :) so things may change as I get further into the game. Thanks for the image posts, I particularly liked the The Legion Infiltrator Battlespire.
     
  9. plaYer2k Master Engineer

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    3,160
    Yeah i agree with Skeloton, there are a few designs out there people just ignored or didnt carefully check.

    Snuggles was my first ever build real ship (no parts slapped together or function tests and nothing else).

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=240269231
    Not so 2D either, i daresay.

    And guess who inspired me? Unknown Squid with his neat Architeuthis Assault Carrier.
    [​IMG]
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=222592555

    Overall i have a building patter to never use stairs for bigger height differences (5+ blocks) anymore but instead build a 90° wall with gravity generators. A room usually has a ground and a ceiling which both can be used in the same fashion. The walls usually can be used for similar purposes aswell, or at least as walking ways.

    This carrier (i never finished) is an example for the previously explained habit. (Video)

    Or you pick my "The Magic Cylinder" which nicely bends gravity in a circle around 13 platforms which each are normal to its rotational axis and thus allow you to actually build on them.
     
  10. Mansen Apprentice Engineer

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    481
    To be fair - The workshop is a blood nightmare to navigate. Try putting in the tag "world" and see how many ships and station designs you get that have nothing to do with a downloadable world. Or a number of other tags. :)
     
  11. Embershard Senior Engineer

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    1,686
    In warfare, you want to present your enemy with as low a profile as possible. This concept doesn't change in space. Take a flat, collapsed cardboard box and set it up with a large flat face . . . facing, you. Take a shot at it with a gun. Pretty easy to hit. Now, lay that box down on it's side, still collapsed, and take another shot. Much harder to hit. It's true there is no orientation in space, but it is good to orient yourself using a point of reference. Building a long wedge, with the floor being "down" is conducive to tactics, as well all staggered guns being able to be brought to bear against your target for concentrated fire. Making a run at a target, point first, will present them with a small profile, while maintaining a good barrage of fire by you. Personally, I would love if everyone started building ships like Skelotons, since destroying them from range would be a breeze. I'll keep my wedges, thanks.
     
  12. plaYer2k Master Engineer

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    3,160
    There isnt just the workshop. This forum here has a lot of them.
    Actually every link provided so far is within this forum.
     
  13. GAdvance Trainee Engineer

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    3
    just an fyi the star destroyer design is actually a pretty good one for a combat vessel in this kind of universe (no infinite range lasers with massive power etc) as its able to, if pointed at the target fire all of its wespons at once and it weapons can all be spread out better
    so whilst its unrealistic for real world stuff its a good design for a game/movie
     
  14. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    791
    The "interesting" designs usually end up looking like trash and not having as much functionality. At least, that has been the case when I've tried to force myself to think outside the box.
     
  15. Embershard Senior Engineer

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    1,686
    Unrealistic for real world? How do you come to that conclusion? If you're talking about the shear size, and amount of materials for today? I agree. Though, the design itself is perfect for a 3D battlefield in the real world. Again, low profile, with staggered guns to bear.
     
  16. MotherbrainJr Apprentice Engineer

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    307
    A spacecraft designed to be streamlined means it can fly in a atmosphere without difficulty.

    Ether like our very real space shuttle:

    <a style="left: 640px; top: 246px; width: 300px; height: 225px; visibility: visible;" target="_blank" class="iol_imc" rel="nofollow">[​IMG]</a>

    Or the sci-fi Enterprise (with antigravity to hold her up).

    IMO spaceships should be streamlined so they can both fly in a vacuum or in a planets atmosphere.
     
  17. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    4,069
    I disagree MotherBrain. I don't think every ship should have re-entry capability. Some ships are better off remaining in space leaving specialized vehicles for re-entry. Like a massive Mothership, or a dreadnaught or Juggernaut. Their size would prohibit re-entry and would need smaller ships to handle Space to Surface transport.
     
  18. joebopie Apprentice Engineer

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    whats your point? there isn't any atmosphere for us to fly in so why would we build streamline things.
     
  19. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    Why build things that look sleek and streamlined? because they look cool and not as bland as a cardboard box.
     
  20. Draygo Senior Engineer

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    1,297
    The most efficient designs I can think of are either saucers or wedges, due to the amount of weapons a single ship can bring to bear on a target. I tend to design my combat ships as a wedge, with critical components near the rear of the ship, and make sure I have enough gyroscopes to keep my front end pointed at the enemy.
     
  21. Lancar Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    Well, while you can build whatever shape you want in space because there's no atmosphere to mess with you, there are still other dangers in space that a streamlined or special kind of design can help against.

    For example: armor aligned to deflect incoming weapons fire, compact shapes that can fit inside asteroids, minimized exposed surface area to protect from meteors, etc.
    As for wings, they serve a good purpose of having somewhere to fit your ordnance. Helicopter gunships have small wings for this very purpose.

    There are a lot of design decisions to be made when constructing your SE spaceships, not just for the coolness factors but also for more practical ones.
     
  22. 1 of 1 Trainee Engineer

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    77
    I've thinking about hull shapes for combat vessels. I thinking the bedt shape is a modified wedge...a flatten Madeleine cookie of sorts. It's a good shape for ships using heavy spinal mounted turret guns like on a 20th century battleship. But equally accepting of smaller, but higher count lateral line placed guns like on pre-WWI style warships.

    The Achilles heel of this design in a 3D environment is its ventral and dorsal arcs, which much means the ship would need to have a good roll rate a long it's longitudinal axis in order rotate itself 90* fast enough to bring its weapons to bear on a target attempting to approach the vessel on its vertical plane.

    For now, it appears hull shape wouldn't effect rotation rate, but if torque/moments are ever modeled, I think one might find having a narrow design improved roll rate...I think.

    Yaw rates wouldn't matter much for a turreted vessel, unless turret rotation rates are exceed by the target(an issue against fast and/or near targets), but yaw rates would be a bit more important for a ship using guns mounted along its lateral line, provided you didn't have good weapon arc coverage toward the front. A good opponent might be able to sit in your weapon's blind spot if he could match or exceed your yaw rate, all while bring to bear his weapons on you.

    Interesting enough, might bring to favor an old air combat maneuver that could be used by high roll rate fighters versus high turn fighters...the rolling scissors. The vessel with high roll rate could enter a rolling scissor-esque maneuver, keeping the opponent on his flanks and his guns on targeted, essential maintaining a constant broad side maneuver in three dimensions all while attempting to remain in his targets vulnerable vertical plane.
     
  23. Brenner Junior Engineer

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    609
    There are SE ship types where "long and sleek" is really the most efficient way to go.

    1. Miners: if you want to build a auto miner that is able to tunnel its way through an entire asteroid, you have to place the storage containers and reactors somewhere, and that is *behind* the drills. So you end up with a long shape automatically.

    2. Grav cannons: while the grav gens don't have to be necessarily placed in a long tube like everyone does it, you still have to store the torpedos somewhere. Placing them in a long line happens to be the easiest way, so you automatically end up with a long shape again.
     
  24. Wazoo117 Trainee Engineer

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    36
    Why? Because box ships quite frankly, look like crap.
     
  25. Spets Master Engineer

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  26. piddlefoot Senior Engineer

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    Go build them then Urban.....
     
  27. Tiger313 Apprentice Engineer

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    Reason why the wedge shape: to bring as much fire power to bear when facing an enemy so you can deal a maximum amount of damage, while keeping your own profile as small as possible so that your enemy has a harder time to hit you. It is the most efficient way of building a combat ship.
     
  28. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    4,069
    Sort of like this
    [​IMG]
     
  29. MotherbrainJr Apprentice Engineer

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    Well yes you are right not ALL ships should have to ever reenter.

    My point is some ships need streamlining and some don't depending on function.
     
  30. UrbanLegend Apprentice Engineer

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    224

    I would think a sphere. There's no direction in space. A wedge might bring all it's firepower to bear on one target while being highly vulnerable to a second target above it and a third at some other odd angle.

    Plus I think there's some orbital mechanics component that we aren't even thinking about and isn't included in the game that would probably be a greater real world component of space combat..
     
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